Following the North's latest goalless game, BBC NI ran a poll on its local news programme about ditching the NI and joining with us in an all-Ireland side.
The poll concluded with 53% in favour but naturally caused a lot of spleen venting on the North's top fans forum, ourweecountry.co.uk.
How would we feel about joining with the North in international football?
This is the cooooooooooooolest footy forum I've ever seen!
It'd be nice but can't see many of then N.I. team getting into the combined team.
I think Gillespie would be great on the right.
George McCartney, Aaron Hughes, Maik Taylor, Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Michael Hughes and Steve Lomas would be in real contention for a squad place.
It's a pity this didn't happen back in the 80's when the likes of Whiteside, O'Neill etc. were playing.
Combined we would have had a great side.
There once was an "All-Ireland" team. It was in 1973 or 74, I think, for a match against Brazil in Landsdowne. We lost 4-3, and if I recall correctly, Mick Martin scored one goal, Derek Dougan another. The team was a "Shamrock Rovers XI" officially (the same way it's a "Limerick" team playing the Dream Team soon). Was there anyone on the boards at the mo at that game?
AFAIK this is the only time that there has been such a team, unless there was one for something like the Omagh fund?
That question was less stupid, though you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Help me, Arthur Murphy, you're my only hope!
Originally Posted by Dodge
1. We're a foreign country.
2. You're our main rival and most of our fans support whover you're playing.
3. Any merged team would need to play many matches in Belfast, ****ing off southern fans without attracting any northerners (because they won't approach the 'cauldron of hatred', except to watch Liverpool/ ManU, drink in the Lisburn Road pubs or buy cars in the Boucher Road dealerships).
4. We're a foreign country.
5. There would inevitably be much more sectarian tension around matches (see 3).
6. The FAI's clout/ availability of junkets etc. would be much diluted. Prionsias and boys ain't voting themselves out of a sinecure.
7. We're a foreign country.
8. We're rubbish and there are no playing reasons for any change. You're better but if we need to merge with anyone I'd prefer Brazil.
9. No offence to the non-Irish born players in our squad currently, but broadly we don't want them to dominate.
10. We're a foreign country...
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Not to mention that Windsor Park only holds 15,000.Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
3. Any merged team would need to play many matches in Belfast, ****ing off southern fans without attracting any northerners (because they won't approach the 'cauldron of hatred', except to watch Liverpool/ ManU, drink in the Lisburn Road pubs or buy cars in the Boucher Road dealerships).
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Ahem, some of us might beg to differ.Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
1. We're a foreign country.
4. We're a foreign country.
7. We're a foreign country.
10. We're a foreign country...Besides, the rugger crowd don't seem to have any problems with it.
Oh, regards the players, what about David Healy? Would he make a squad place?
You can't spell failure without FAI
Schumi: Believe me, even the tiny dilapidated Windsor Park would have little problem holding the small number interested in such games.
John: if Ireland rugby fans are happy with
- hardly an Ulsterman in the team
- not a single international at Ravenhill in decades
- listening to the woeful Ireland's Call
then fair enough. I wouldn't be. In fact I might contact http://ulsterrugby.ie to say so.
David Healy is nowhere near good enough for international football, hasn't been for about two years.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
I'd be against it.
I see no reason to throw our lot in with a bunch that refer to us habitually as "beggars", view us with the same regard that Holland has for Germany and would bring another tranche of old Firm obsessed thugs to the games. The potential for trouble is immense - I wouldn't relish a few Linfield or Rangers supporting heroes making the trip down to Dublin to make a "statement" the night of an Ireland game. And before anyone throws their toys out of the pram I am fully aware that there are just as many RoI supporting idiots who could cause hassle in Belfast for the same reasons. However that's not what we're discussing. Leave well enough alone I say.
Maybe you should put her on a leash, agent-man.
Indeed. The term 'beggars' isn't really helpful, as Nige says.
Whole thing's a non-starter.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
I think this debate is pretty superfluous. Anyone born north of the border can choose to play for us if they so wish. As per the Belfast Agreement, its up to each individual as to whether they want to consider themselves British or Irish.
Why would we want to merge with the bigots in the North? We have enough problems already with fans...Rovers scum section, fans abusing any Glasgow Rangers player that comes to Dublin. Last thing we need is to mix those guys up with the sectarian idiots that abuse Lennon.
Forget it. No one wants this longterm. At present, the N. Ire team are in bits and so the fans would try anything to improve the situation. If this question was asked a few years ago, I don't think it would generate 53% support up North.
Plus, as Fergalr points out, the players can play for us now, if they want to.
Why would we want to merge with the bigots down south (though I'm sure Liamon would agree they're a minority on both sidesOriginally posted by liamon
Why would we want to merge with the bigots in the North? We have enough problems already with fans...Rovers scum section, fans abusing any Glasgow Rangers player that comes to Dublin. Last thing we need is to mix those guys up with the sectarian idiots that abuse Lennon.
Forget it. No one wants this longterm. At present, the N. Ire team are in bits and so the fans would try anything to improve the situation. If this question was asked a few years ago, I don't think it would generate 53% support up North.
Plus, as Fergalr points out, the players can play for us now, if they want to.).
The question (in the BBC poll) will always get that answer because nationalists in NI who like football will tend to support the Republic. I'm quite relaxed about that. Unionists support the North. Genuine fans don't vote for their own team to be abolished.
This is basically a running joke for Sinn Fein and similar. If not a particularly coherent one.
And as Fergal didn't point out, provided they can get to the front of the queue past all the Englishmen (you took 10 to the last World Cup out of 22!).
11. We're a foreign country.
Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 15/09/2003 at 2:06 PM.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Yup. I do agree.Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Why would we want to merge with the bigots down south (though I'm sure Liamon would agree they're a minority on both sides
.... front of the queue past all the Englishmen (you took 10 to the last World Cup out of 22!).
On the 10 english men....Cheeky!
This may be off the point a bit, but Northern Ireland isn't really a country - foreign or otherwise. Neither are Scotland, Wales or England for that matter.
Last edited by MikeW; 15/09/2003 at 3:12 PM.
ame was in 1973 Shamrock rovers All Ireland XI v Brazil - lost 4-3 team included Dougan, Conroy, Giles, Brady and a young Martin O'Neill. i think Jennings was in goal. Game was live on tv and I can remember watching it (was only 6) and tis was i nthe dark days when we only had the FA Cup Final on tv (it was always the radio for Internationals).
As for an All Ireland team - no particular objection to one once the NI fans approved (which they don't and won't) but no particular desire either.
In reality it's a non story and just a page filler. It may become an issue if FIFA ever forced the UK to field one national team.
BTW the opposition to it up north is akin to the opposition here if an England fan suggested we unite and form one team for the British Isles (sure we're all the one country etc etc) and we have a flag that has the crosses of St. George, St Andrew and St. Patrick.
Heart says yes, but the heart says yes for world peace, next Saturday's lottery numbers and to be Claudia Schiffer's bar of soap for a day.To my northern friend DG:
1. The foreign country you belong to is Britain.Ireland joined the United Kingdom in 1801 under some very dubious 'democratic' machinations. Therefore it should have decided whether to stay or go through a democratic vote. Instead an artificial statelet was invented for the minority who wished to stay British. The border contains farms that have their front doors in one country and back doors in another. Even the use of Ulster is inaccurate as if there were a nine counties province it would probably opt for a united Ireland. One would respect your 'sovereignty' as a 'country' if you were independent, but the truth is any wishes for independence are shared either by a few dope puffing liberals in the Alliance Party or Bob Jones University type crack-pots such as Hugh Ross and his one man Ulster Independence Movement.
Two fifths of the population wish to see a united Ireland as a political goal, and it looks like from this poll (despite the efforts of some NI fans to spend the evening ringing up continuously to influence the vote - which goes against the no-one votes for the abolition of their team: there was a no answer after all) that a part of the unionist population agree with two true-blue unionists, Derek Dougan and George Best, that a united Ireland team is desirable.
2. You just can't win.
3. Yes the whole thing is a non starter because for the South there is too much to lose and nothing to gain. If a player wants to play for the south, he'll just take out citizenship. No gentleman's agreement can stop the right of any citizen to play for his country.
4. Only a UK team would force the issue. And then again we are back to the above where a de facto all - Ireland side would be participating under the 26 county 'Republic of Ireland.'
5. Cheeky right about 'Englishmen'.Even the most dubious ones (exceptions Tony Cascarino (who honest guv, we didn't know about) and the bloke with one cap who married a bird with an Irish granny) had some Irish blood. Not so some of the characters that have turned up for the O6C with a British passport, eh? And of course it never stopped you nicking southerners as your political (Edward Carson) and military (Henry Wilson) leaders during the attempt to loyally overthrow the elected goverment of your country (which isn't Northern Ireland).
PS: If I'm English, you must be Irish. Therefore support your country.
This is the cooooooooooooolest footy forum I've ever seen!
this is such a non-runner it's daft, it's just the product of a very slow news day.
i think at the moment we would have little to gain from it and potentially much to lose. as someone has said though, if this could have been put together in the early-mid eighties we could have had some team between us. Remember the ROI only missed out on Spain '82 on goal difference. this team could have played....
__________________Jennings________________
____Nicholl_____Moran__Lawrenson__Donaghy__
____Whiteside___O'Neill__McIllroy____Brady_____
____________Armstrong____Stapleton_________
and i'm leaving out a load of players from both countries
To my Hemel friend Lopez:
The foreign country we don't belong to is the Republic of Ireland.
Therefore, we are not going to merge with its football team.
Ireland's joining the United Kingdom in 1801 was not in any sense democratic, and no-one seriously claimed at the time that it was. This is well before universal suffrage of course, or even the great 'reform' of 1832; but Ireland did have the Grattan Parliament of its own.
The artificial statelet in Belfast founded in the 1920s was no more artificial than the Dublin one. It had majority support from a geographically localised population. It was quickly recognised as lacking legitimacy (ie by discriminating against nationalists), but by and large it doesn't do that any more, yet remains in place. NI has outlasted the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, remember. And there is simply no sign that this will change.
Sure, 'Ulster' is inaccurate. At my school, there were plenty of Prod farmers from the lost three who'd learned from grandparents that we (ie Belfast) sold them out in the 1920s. But again, it's no more inaccurate than you referring to the 26 as 'Ireland'. Live and let live, eh?
For 50 years until 1972, and haltingly in recent years, NI has had effective autonomy from Great Britain. Not what I'd prefer but you need to recognise reality. What most unionists want- and have wanted for decades- is primarily separation from Dublin, rather than any particular form of devolution from London.
That poll was a nationalist stunt and I very much doubt any NI fans voted to abolish. The BBC, and BelTel run this sort of thing from time to time: it's never followed up of course, but merely passed off as a joke. Were it serious, they would alienate much of their audience, which as you rightly point out is about 60% non-nationalist. George Best and Derek Dougan are not true-blue unionists, actually, notwithstanding what they thought about football 20 or 30 years ago.
You knew after four caps that TC was ineligible for international football. Yet he got 80+ more! That was dishonest, to deny it was silly. The problem with all your English is not so much where they grew up, but the faux-historical justification you give to pick them. It has little do with the famine or diaspora, more that Matty or Clint ain't good enough to play for England or Jamaica. Sure, we bend the rules (like England, Germany, Italy and France have done), but we don't blame Britain for enabling us to pick British players! Your hypocrisy is laughable.
As for the mutineers, why not list the most senior of all- Andrew Bonar Law, who became Brit prome minister a few years later, in 1922. Maybe because you realise that events 80 years ago aren't actually that relevant any more?
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Do we want all the hassle ?
But anyone in the north who wants to play for the south should be allowed to do so or visa versa.
I think there is some agreement between the two associations not to poach each others under-age players.
Of course that's true, (something that the more extreme ends of Republicanism would agree with) but this is also a recognition that the country was divided just as Germany, Vietnam and Korea were, and it is why most 26C supporters, both north and south, consider the 26C side as the de facto representatives of this whole island. Unlike Ulster however, the majority in this divided land would vote for independence.Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The artificial statelet in Belfast founded in the 1920s was no more artificial than the Dublin one.
Thanks to the separation of the two states, neither fulfilled its potential. The south was held back for years by economic stagnation and as Sean O'Faoilain claimed, it was hard to tell where the Irish parliament was: Maynooth or Dublin. Meanwhile the North had almost thirty years of civil war. As for outlasting these countries, remember we are talking about an autonomous region of Britain, not a country.
That poll was a nationalist stunt and I very much doubt any NI fans voted to abolish.
Your belief in the poll being 'a nationalist stunt' strikes me as being a touch of wishful thinking, if not paranoia. And as far as George and Derek being unionist, Dougan claims that he is only interested in footballing re-unification in his books 'The Sash He Never Wore' and 'How Not To Run Football'. Still doesn't stop him being labelled a Lundy or a 'rotten prod' though.
You knew after four caps that TC was ineligible for international football. Yet he got 80+ more!
I didn't know Cascarino was ineligible until his money-making book. If only his mother had played ball and got an Irish passport, he would have been eligible, despite her adoption.
The problem with all your English is not so much where they grew up, but the faux-historical justification you give to pick them. It has little do with the famine or diaspora, more that Matty or Clint ain't good enough to play for England or Jamaica...Your hypocrisy is laughable.
I wouldn't say that a player with one grandparent makes him Irish, but it does entitle him to Irish citizenship. But what about the players and fans with two Irish parents? Are these players just playing for Ireland cos they didn't make it into the England team? Are these fans following Ireland because they are glory-hunters or because they can't get tickets to England games, or did they have a brick fall on their heads because they don't support the first country their mothers' dropped them on? Perhaps if you stuck to TC, Aldo, Miguel Robinson and the Princess Diana loving Andy Townsend plus a couple more I'd agree with you. I wouldn't doubt that Jimmy Nichol and Ian Dowie were committed to NI. Would you?
May I also mention Alan Kernaghan. Here was a man who was picked (legally) by us because the IFA refused to pick him, even though he grew up in NI, played schoolboy internationals for NI and his grandparents were born there. A northern protestant picked not because of his religion but because he wanted international football, and we needed a centre half. Again still didn't stop him being called a Lundy or a 'rotten prod' or us discriminating. Still we'll knoe for sure next time the British (sic.) Lions squad is named.
As for the mutineers, why not list the most senior of all- Andrew Bonar Law, who became Brit prome minister a few years later, in 1922.
Wasn't he Canadian?
Maybe because you realise that events 80 years ago aren't actually that relevant any more?
If only events 800 years ago weren't relevant.
This is the cooooooooooooolest footy forum I've ever seen!
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