Do we want an all - Ireland team?

[gspain]

Tony Cascarino was eligible to play for us at all times. He had an Irish passport which is all that is required.

Just like anyone with a British passport can play for Northern Ireland whether it be Laurie Sanchez or the shameless pursuit of David Johnson.

[pineapple stu]

Originally posted by gspain
Just like anyone with a British passport can play for Northern Ireland whether it be Laurie Sanchez or the shameless pursuit of David Johnson.

Don't forget Maik Taylor - a German naturalised in England after playing for Fulham for a time who subsequently declared for the North!

Surely though this is a political issue (and a fairly thorny one at that) and shouldn't be reduced to whether David Healy would improve our team? Seems to be an insult to everyone who's suffered, innocently or willingly in defence of their beliefs, over the centuries. Very surprised the Beeb brought it up actually...

[clarkeyboy]

i think even after demogaphics finally solve the "national question", we should leave them be up at windsor. we don't need their brand of "patriotism", and that's being kind. too many bitter people who would use the occasion to forment hatred and bigotry. btw, from a very reliable source, damien johnson was asked on the coach to windsor the other night "how many of us will be singing the anthem tonight damien?" he replied "about four of yez".

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. There's no parallel between the parition of Ireland and that of Germany in 1945. Is there? So why mention it...

All RoI fans recognise that NI has a team. Most aren't bothered, a few are upset. But all accept it 'de facto'.

The BBC NI poll was a stunt for the reasons I described. BTW please don't use 'paranoia' (which has a precise clinical meaning) as a shorthand for 'Ulster unionist who disagrees with me'. My reading of Messrs Dougan and Best over the years suggests one's an old-fashioned Labour man, the other party apolitical.

You didn't personally know Cantscorani was ineligible. But the FAI did, eh?

Don't be defensive. As you know I admire the huge support your team has, particularly away. But there's a lot of baggage involved. Drop that, and no-one will really mind where you or your players grow up. But keep going on about disapora and 1169, you'll get ridiculed. German and French football fans don't constantly return to the Peace of Westphalia or the Edict of Nantes, eh?

I was disappointed about Alan Kernaghan. Sure, we don't have so many good players to afford to lose any: but YOU broke the gentlemens' agreement. There was no 'law', as you say, but you still showed bad faith. Obviously I abhor anyone giving AK sectarian abuse for his choice.

Gary. TC didn't deserve an Irish passport. Which the FAI knew. Which is, er, all that matters...

Actually, anyone with a UK passport but born outside is eligible for any of the four teams. Not really sensible but not quite what you said. Agree about David Johnson, who's rubbish anyway. I thought Sanchez has Irish grandparent(s)?

Clarkeyboy. The demographics aren't going your way- all surveys show nationalist/ Catholic strength peaking at about 46% then falling slightly over the next generation. Your brand of 'patriotism' is basically the same as ours. All your 'reliable source' needs to do is watch TV when our players line up for the anthems. I couldn't give a flying fcuk whether any or all sing them- but Damien Johnson was our best player in Ukraine nevertheless.

But for all that you're broadly right. We don't want to join you, or vice-versa. So what's the issue?

[gspain]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner

You didn't personally know Cantscorani was ineligible. But the FAI did, eh?

Don't be defensive. As you know I admire the huge support your team has, particularly away. But there's a lot of baggage involved. Drop that, and no-one will really mind where you or your players grow up. But keep going on about disapora and 1169, you'll get ridiculed. German and French football fans don't constantly return to the Peace of Westphalia or the Edict of Nantes, eh?

I was disappointed about Alan Kernaghan. Sure, we don't have so many good players to afford to lose any: but YOU broke the gentlemens' agreement. There was no 'law', as you say, but you still showed bad faith. Obviously I abhor anyone giving AK sectarian abuse for his choice.

Gary. TC didn't deserve an Irish passport. Which the FAI knew. Which is, er, all that matters...

Who knew what on Cascarino is a moot point. However he was eligible to play. We have applied for passports for a couple of others and got turned down.

Alan Kernaghan wanted to play for Northern Ireland. You turned him down because Billy Bingham decided after Laurie Sanchez not to use the granny rule. I believe Alan Kernaghan's 4 grandparents were from the Bangor area and he went to school there having been born in England. I think with hindsight most NI fans will agree you should have accepted him. We took him then and he turned in some decent performances for us in qualifying for USA 94 and was unfortunate to lose out to Phil Babb .

We have exploited the granny rule on a few occasions but in many more cases the guys are ghenuinely Irish even if born in England. We have many English born fans who consider themselves Irish and have been following us long before it became fashionable.

As for breaking the "gentleman's agreement" yes it looks like we did although it wasn't with Kernaghan - think it was more Brian Kerr with the underage teams. We have invested signidficantly in our underage sides but I can see how it is a sore point. I don't like it when Kyran Bracken plays rugby for england.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez. There's no parallel between the partition of Ireland and that of Germany in 1945. Is there? So why mention it...

Interference by a third party, partitioned against the democratic wishes of the majority and as you concede both states are artificial creations, just like the FRG and the GDR. No parallel indeed.

We're not talking about Israel here, where the creation of this 'state' can be justified as a homeland for a long persecuted people. You have your own country as I have mine. No that doesn't mean p*ss off there, after all you would probably be a greater contributor to Ireland than someone who declares their love of their country tattooed on their arm but sells drugs and participates in murder solely on ethnic/religious (take your pick) lines. I live in Britain and to be quite honest, I know where I stand there, probably more than yourself.

All RoI fans recognise that NI has a team. Most aren't bothered, a few are upset. But all accept it 'de facto'.

Fair point but please don't use the 'our country' line. Your country, whether you live in Belfast, London or Letterkenny (as some of your supporters - good luck to them - do) is Britain. Having four teams may have been okay with the British Championship or the Empire Games but it is a bit of liberty in the World Cup.

The BBC NI poll was a stunt for the reasons I described. BTW please don't use 'paranoia' (which has a precise clinical meaning) as a shorthand for 'Ulster unionist who disagrees with me'.

Everyone is against us. The BBC, the Belfast Telegraph, the treacherous British government. SF/IRA to be succinct have accepted (grudgingly) partition which will not be broken by mere demographics (perhaps for the good unless we want a repeat of the past 30 years) but by unionists changing to either separatists or Republicans.

My reading of Messrs Dougan and Best over the years suggests one's an old-fashioned Labour man, the other party apolitical.

'I...am not arguing for or against a political United Ireland. All I want to argue is that there is a need for an All-Ireland football team...' (pp177: The Sash He Never Wore...Twenty Five Years On). I also spoke to Derek in the mid nineties and he conceded that he was British. Besty? I have great memories of him sober at a dinner in Harrow, London, just before US'94. Asked who he'd want as England manager he replied: 'As an Irishman, it has to be Graham Taylor.' Class.

You didn't personally know Cantscorani was ineligible. But the FAI did, eh?

As Senor Espana pointed out before, he got an Irish passport, even though this was through dubious methods. A bit like Zola Budd. Anyway an adopted person is entitled to the benefits of a non-adopted person. If not, they may as well stay 'fostered'.

Don't be defensive. As you know I admire the huge support your team has, particularly away. But there's a lot of baggage involved. Drop that, and no-one will really mind where you or your players grow up. But keep going on about Diaspora and 1169, you'll get ridiculed. German and French football fans don't constantly return to the Peace of Westphalia or the Edict of Nantes, eh?

Your the one that brought up the '10 English' players, just like the British press. No mention of the hundred of dubious 'British' sportsmen that have competed for your country's teams including the Maharaja Kumar Shri Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji who played cricket for England in the late 1890s. I bet he'd have to look a fair bit back for his English granny!

As for Germany, you know that the whole citizenship laws of that country, unless they've been changed, have been based on blood (Jus sanguinis) rather than birthplace (Jus Soli). While Mehmet and Ali (and possibly their parents) were born in Germany, they couldn't get German citizenship, someone from the former Soviet Union could walk in with his great grandfather's Nazi Party membership and get a passport.

I was disappointed about Alan Kernaghan. Sure, we don't have so many good players to afford to lose any: but YOU broke the gentlemens' agreement. There was no 'law', as you say, but you still showed bad faith. Obviously I abhor anyone giving AK sectarian abuse for his choice.

Good! I don't believe in any agreement that stops someone from playing for any country for which he is a citizen.

The demographics aren't going your way- all surveys show nationalist/ Catholic strength peaking at about 46% then falling slightly over the next generation. Your brand of 'patriotism' is basically the same as ours. All your 'reliable source' needs to do is watch TV when our players line up for the anthems. I couldn't give a flying fcuk whether any or all sing them- but Damien Johnson was our best player in Ukraine nevertheless.

The demographics are meaningless if Unionists continue to veto any all-Ireland state. However I was at the 'cauldron of hate' that you mention for your match against Spain in June, and there were many around me that refused to sing GSTQ. I believe they were nationalists (although they were all grandfathers with their children - the younger generation were in The Botanic watching the Georgia game). These NI supporters would most likely support an All-Ireland team, if not the Republic (as first choice).

I have to admit (after my previous two visits watching the south in Windsor Park) that the atmosphere has changed for the better. The IFA should be commended for their much belated attempt to purge sectarianism surrounding the team. However it is all like one of those British Telecom ads asking people to come back after years of liberty taking. It all sounds as if now the IFA are losing gate receipts, they are desperately seeking Nationalists to attend.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Conor74
Uh oh...there's gonna be trouble...someone just mentioned the Peace of Westphalia...

It's a northern thing, C74, seventeenth century events. Like the annual dedication to a seventeenth century Dutch poof (no offence to any gay readers, especially the two nice boys I met in Tallin), of which a couple of scarves recalling his highness's victory over an oversexed Scottish layabout (who alas was also Catholic) somewhere near Drogheda, I spotted at the otherwise charming Windsor Park in June.

[brine2]

I think the NI team and Windsor Park supporters should first reach out to the NI population, teams and players that they have succeeded in isolating before people even start thinking about an all-Ireland team. Get an alternative Ulster, alter your native land.

[lopez]

Originally posted by brine2
I think the NI team and Windsor Park supporters should first reach out to the NI population, teams and players that they have succeeded in isolating before people even start thinking about an all-Ireland team. Get an alternative Ulster, alter your native land.

That is exactly what the IFA have tried to do with its, if I'm correct, 'Football for all' campaign, following the firstly booing of Neil Lennon, and then his subsequent 'death threat' of which a few NI fans would like us to believe was a nationalist stunt, 'because they were the only ones to benefit from it.' The IFA have never been a sectarian organisation. This is an easy thing to say but one needs to look at its significance during the time from partition to probably the arrival of Terence O'Neil, an era where most areas of government and their subsidiaries were dominated by an ethic that took pride in not employing Catholics. Not only did the IFA refuse to pick teams on religious/ethnic lines but even elected Austin Donnelly as its president. The same can't be said of the Irish League, of whose record regarding both Belfast Celtic and Derry City was shameful and whom both Donegal Celtic and Lurgan Celtic recently threatened to take to court.

The trouble is that many nationalists, especially those of the 'troubles' generation (under 40), just couldn't be arsed about NI whatever the IFA does. While there is a belief amongst the NI faithful that this is a recent offshoot of the Republic's success, there were Northerners following the Republic in 1981 when my first away game was. To visit Belfast now is to see, ignoring those of two Glasgow clubs, either replica Republic shirts or to a lesser extent England shirts. NI shirts just don't appear. It is strange indeed.

[The Blue Oyster]

me personally i would not like one.although roy carroll would be a good back up for shay.

[brine2]

Aaron Hughes over Ian Harte, surely. Norn Iron may be weak going forward (understatement of the year) but they have a sound enough defence.

[Duncan Gardner]

Gary- happy birthday! As my source for Tony C is basically his book, which does appear to be extremely dishonest even by the standards of ghosted autobiogs, I'll withdraw from this one as gracefully as possible

Blue Oyster- fine, if you're prepared for the Fermanagh Fumbler to cut games in eastern Europe for 'personal reasons' (ie, so he can warm his arse on the ManU bench or play for the stiffs). When this was put to him by some angrty fans in the car park after the Armenia game, he got off the team coach in a right lather and had to be held back by Sammy Mac

Brine- are you the poster aka Coyote from Amsterdam? If so, hello, goed moergen?

Lopez- I guess the others don't want to read our interminable head to head, so I've emailed you (ps, look out for even more inanity as the bard of Finsbury Park has now joined this board )...

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez- I guess the others don't want to read our interminable head to head, so I've emailed you (ps, look out for even more inanity as the bard of Finsbury Park has now joined this board )...

You're right. I think people are bored by our handbags swinging in the wind. Still, can't wait for Kyrano's evil half brother to lather up this forum.

[brine2]

Brine- are you the poster aka Coyote from Amsterdam? If so, hello, goed moergen?

hello indeed. yeah, how did you end up here? Was Colm not entertaining enough for you?

(it's "goede morgen") goed is correct spelling for good, but morgen is a "de" word (de morgen) so the noun morgen modifies the adjective goed with an e on the end. That concludes today's Dutch lesson.

[crc]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Clarkeyboy. The demographics aren't going your way- all surveys show nationalist/ Catholic strength peaking at about 46% then falling slightly over the next generation.

Sorry mate, the Catholic population is higher for every age group between age 0 and age 24. NI Census details

I'm completely in favour of an all-Ireland team, just like most of the other sports on the island: cricket, rugby, hockey, GAA, athletics, swimming, basketball, volleyball, tennis...

Whatever about the political issue, the island constitutes the natural sporting community. We would all benefit.

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by crc
Sorry mate, the Catholic population is higher for every age group between age 0 and age 24. NI Census details

I'm completely in favour of an all-Ireland team, just like most of the other sports on the island: cricket, rugby, hockey, GAA, athletics, swimming, basketball, volleyball, tennis...

Whatever about the political issue, the island constitutes the natural sporting community. We would all benefit.

Indeed. For the 16-24 group, Catholics outnumber others by a ratio roughly 51:49. Yet for 25-44 year olds (obviously a sample more than twice as large), the ration is about 44:56. So unless you introudce a maximum voting age of, say, 30, you can forget outpolling the unionists (or "planters", for our drunken friend above)for a few decades yet. Even if all Catholics declare for nationalist parties, which the evidence of November 2003 suggests they won't- SF and SDLP's combined strength actually fell from previous elections, to 40.5%.

Claiming that the border isn't important is in itself a political issue, is it not?

[crc]

DG:

I realise that there is currently a Protestant majority in the older age groups and in the population as a whole - I was merely countering your claim that the Catholic populaton would peak at 46%. This is obviously not the case as there is a higher Catholic birth rate and so, based on the data that we are presented with, you can envision that there may be parity in say, 30 - 40 years.

I never made any mention about Nationalists or Unionists, or how they vote!

The border is important because it is stifling football on this island, both sides (particularly the leagues) would be better off if it was organised differently.

For example, there is no Welsh cricket organisation because there is the England & Wales one. They realise that their game is healthier that way, wheras Scotland and Ireland operate independently because their circumstances are different.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
...So unless you introudce a maximum voting age of, say, 30, you can forget outpolling the unionists (or "planters", for our drunken friend above)for a few decades yet. Even if all Catholics declare for nationalist parties, which the evidence of November 2003 suggests they won't- SF and SDLP's combined strength actually fell from previous elections, to 40.5%.

It wouldn't matter if Catholics outvoted Protestants 80 to 20 and Sinn Fein representatives were greater than all the others put together, as in 1918. Unionists will never accept an all -Ireland state. They weren't interested in democracy ninety years ago. What makes you think they're interested in it now (hence Trimble's attempt to move the goalposts once more a couple of years ago when his sphincter went upon hearing Belfast was now a Taig town)? The least you can expect is a resurgence of Unionist terrorism with the hope that they can once more repartition the island with no thoughts for either their stranded co-religionists/politicos let alone any RCs they inherit.

[Duncan Gardner]

crc. The 46% I quoted was from a recent academic paper out of Queens University in Belfast. I'll try to find a link for this. A greater Catholic birthrate in 1991-2001 does not necessarily mean the same in 2011-2021, as Gerry Adams has acknowledged.

You didn't mention unionist and nationalist voting strengths, as you say, but they're more important politically than a religious census.

Wales has a representative cricket team which beat England in a representative one-day game a couple of seasons ago

Lopez. I like it when you get irritable . To quote your favourite realpolitik, of course the unionists would have to scratch a deal were they ever massively outnumbered by the nats in NI. But since they won't be, we'll never get the chance to test your hypothesis.

Naturally I accept not being particularly representative of Ulster unionism. I certainly dissociate from Trimble. Apart from his dodgy youth (leadership of the 70s Vanguard) and sucking up to Paisley and the paramilitaries at Drumcree, the man's a CONSERVATIVE!

PS just cos the Czech railways are even slower than the Met Line doesn't mean they're worse overall

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by brine2
Aaron Hughes over Ian Harte, surely. Norn Iron may be weak going forward (understatement of the year) but they have a sound enough defence.

christy brown over ian harte me thinks