The say anything, what's on your mind thread

**Jd2793** · 23/03/2022, 2:23 PM

people are hardly fooling themselves that LOI is on par with l1 are they? there are players in this league that have the ability to play l1. vast majority of the teams arent next or near l1 standard. Rovers are the only ones for my money that would be fine in the league and at that probably somewhere around mid table.

**ontheotherhand** · 23/03/2022, 2:30 PM

Isn't there a league over there in between League One and the conference....?

I used to argue with my EPL/Sky Sports following friends that the good LoI teams would hold their own in League One and even get a few results against clubs above that. But that was a long time ago. So much money has gone into the English game. Dundalk in their pomp would still have done alright. The Rovers side who came after them too I think.

But there is a huge gap between those sides and the bottom of the LoI. The clubs stu mentioned would struggle massively in League 2 I think.

Not sure on this seasons better teams yet. Derry look decent. Rovers could come good but aren't the same team they were when Jack was flying and McEneff and O'Brien were there. Pats and Sligo I think will drop off but on their day look good.

Would they get a few results against League One teams? I'd think so yeah given it isn't a higher standard than what we come up against in of Europe. But would they last the season? Not so sure although our better players tend to do just fine at that level when they go over so you'd think the better teams might be OK.

**pineapple stu** · 23/03/2022, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

But there is a huge gap between those sides and the bottom of the LoI. The clubs stu mentioned would struggle massively in League 2 I think.

A part-time college team would be relegated out of sight from League Two.

Harps' squad is probably too small for 50+ games at that level when cups are included.

But yeah, the LoI doesn't neatly fall into one division. UCD and Rovers wouldn't be in the same division. We'd probably be two apart (eg Conference North/League Two)

I would note though I don't think you can't equate "our better players do ok" with "our better teams would do ok". By definition, any LoI club doesn't have a 22-man squad of its better players, or even a team of 11. I think that depth is where most clubs would really struggle

**Jd2793** · 23/03/2022, 2:51 PM

Currently Shamrock, followed by Bohemians then Dundalk. Rest of our UK leagues covered below, ordered by average team strength.
https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/s...47884751867905

data analytics company compared all uk+irish divisions standard wise through AI.

**pineapple stu** · 23/03/2022, 2:59 PM

That's a very interesting chart, and does corroborate what everyone (except Nigel) is saying.

One limitation - which they're probably aware of - is that it requires cross-over matches (Europe, or domestic cup games) to match leagues, which are relatively rare, so that might skew the figures slightly.

But I think it's a good stab at it. Bohs/Dundalk will be weaker this year of course, but Derry are stronger. Always going to have a bit of that

**nigel-harps1954** · 23/03/2022, 3:21 PM

I don't see how that data can be compiled accurately, but even at that it equates pretty well to my view that the LOI is near enough League One standard with a few of the lower teams at League Two standard. Longford were an outlier last season and UCD and Shelbourne are both better than what they were.

**pineapple stu** · 23/03/2022, 3:45 PM

That's not what it says.

It has the top three in L1 - but Dundalk about last (or maybe sneaking the last playoff spot in L2). Both Dundalk and Bohs have gone backwards since last year.

It has Harps and Waterford as Conference level, and the league as a whole (which is what the question was) sightly behind L2.

Going on another chart on that thread, it rates the LoI above Romania and Slovakia, which I don't believe (this is the whole league, not just the European teams) and I suspect it may overrate the LoI slightly, possibly due to summer soccer and postponed games helping a bit in European results, which are used to try rank the various leagues (which I think then help anchor the club results in that league)

And I'm not sure how it'd compare the 36-game LoI season with the 46-game English season (which has three Cups to our, at present, one) because that would definitely be a factor in my mind.

Can I ask again why you think there are no LoI players in the national squad if the league is around L1 standard, but there's 6 L1 players (I think - Bazunu, McClean, Sykes, Parrott, Ogbene, Keane) in it?

**ontheotherhand** · 23/03/2022, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

A part-time college team would be relegated out of sight from League Two.

Harps' squad is probably too small for 50+ games at that level when cups are included.

But yeah, the LoI doesn't neatly fall into one division. UCD and Rovers wouldn't be in the same division. We'd probably be two apart (eg Conference North/League Two)

I would note though I don't think you can't equate "our better players do ok" with "our better teams would do ok". By definition, any LoI club doesn't have a 22-man squad of its better players, or even a team of 11. I think that depth is where most clubs would really struggle

Probably didn't articulate it well but what I meant was that if the likes of Sadlier can go over and do very well at that level, and he was fairly well contained in this league by the better sides, then our better sides are probably good enough to contain League 1 level players and therefore do ok. I also don't think Sadlier was miles better than any player in any position in the starting 11s of the best Dundalk and Rovers sides so you can at least have a first team 11 that is as good as the better players. That's how we get teams finishing so far ahead here.

I'm not sure it's that useful to compare squad depth against the amount of games. If a LoI team was in League 1 they'd have a bit more cash to go build a squad. We are taking about quality here right?

To your other point here - "Can I ask again why you think there are no LoI players in the national squad if the league is around L1 standard, but there's 6 L1 players (I think - Bazunu, McClean, Sykes, Parrott, Ogbene, Keane) in it?" - I'll give that a swing:

Bazunu's case is obvious. He's not a L1 player.
McClean could easily be playing for Derry this year! Ogbene isn't too far away from the LoI.
Sykes is a prospect in a creative position we lack options in and it wouldn't be crazy to suggest someone like Jack Byrne could take that slot in the future.
Parrot similar to Bazunu is on loan and there's no good Irish strikers in LoI right now regardless so Keane is the best of a bad bunch.

But generally I think I agree with you. LoI is a mix of levels. I'd like to see how we'd do against the Scottish second tier.

**nigel-harps1954** · 23/03/2022, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's not what it says.

It has the top three in L1 - but Dundalk about last (or maybe sneaking the last playoff spot in L2). Both Dundalk and Bohs have gone backwards since last year.

It has Harps and Waterford as Conference level, and the league as a whole (which is what the question was) sightly behind L2.

Going on another chart on that thread, it rates the LoI above Romania and Slovakia, which I don't believe (this is the whole league, not just the European teams) and I suspect it may overrate the LoI slightly, possibly due to summer soccer and postponed games helping a bit in European results, which are used to try rank the various leagues (which I think then help anchor the club results in that league)

And I'm not sure how it'd compare the 36-game LoI season with the 46-game English season (which has three Cups to our, at present, one) because that would definitely be a factor in my mind.

Can I ask again why you think there are no LoI players in the national squad if the league is around L1 standard, but there's 6 L1 players (I think - Bazunu, McClean, Sykes, Parrott, Ogbene, Keane) in it?

If it's fair to assume it's ranking LOI too highly, then why is it not fair to say it ranks League One, League Two or Conference too highly? Or, is it a case that it simply doesn't support your argument?

The national team argument has been fairly well covered by ontheotherhand.

I've spoken to a few players who have ranked the LOI as equivalent to League One. Also, one who suggests the top LOI teams would comfortably perform in the Scottish Premier and the bottom few in the Scottish Championship. That's from a player who is currently playing in the Scottish Championship too.

But I guess they're wrong too.

**Jd2793** · 23/03/2022, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

If it's fair to assume it's ranking LOI too highly, then why is it not fair to say it ranks League One, League Two or Conference too highly? Or, is it a case that it simply doesn't support your argument?

The national team argument has been fairly well covered by ontheotherhand.

I've spoken to a few players who have ranked the LOI as equivalent to League One. Also, one who suggests the top LOI teams would comfortably perform in the Scottish Premier and the bottom few in the Scottish Championship. That's from a player who is currently playing in the Scottish Championship too.

But I guess they're wrong too.

all you have to do is read the tweet. its saying shams would be somewhere near mid table in SPL.

**Jd2793** · 23/03/2022, 4:31 PM

mcclean will be back in derry because he wants to be , not because his ability has fallen to the level. he is still a serious l1/lower champ player. liverpool sent jaros on loan to conference after spending a year with pats, what does that tell you? andre wright was made look competent in this league at bohs, now hes a sub in conference north. facts are there will always be 1 or 2 at every club capable of playing up to l1 but the VAST majority of this league is not near the level.

**ontheotherhand** · 23/03/2022, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jd2793

mcclean will be back in derry because he wants to be , not because his ability has fallen to the level. he is still a serious l1/lower champ player. liverpool sent jaros on loan to conference after spending a year with pats, what does that tell you? andre wright was made look competent in this league at bohs, now hes a sub in conference north. facts are there will always be 1 or 2 at every club capable of playing up to l1 but the VAST majority of this league is not near the level.

McClean - well we might see next year!

Jaros doesn't tell me anything. Bazunu is in L1. Loans are loans.

Andre Wright was made look competent at Bohs and incompetent at Sligo.

And I'm not saying the vast majority of LoI is L1 level. Read my post.

**pineapple stu** · 23/03/2022, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

I'm not sure it's that useful to compare squad depth against the amount of games. If a LoI team was in League 1 they'd have a bit more cash to go build a squad.

Well - if my aunt had balls, etc. I think the only reasonable comparison to attempt is between the clubs as they currently are. The LoI doesn't have extra cash, and that's a factor. Give all LoI clubs an extra what - million a year? - and it'd be a different question.

But I think to put the current (say) Dundalk squad into L2 - they're going to start struggling with injuries come the spring. Squad depth is important when there's more games. Also, for each Sadlier (who isn't having a great season this year), you can probably have a Graham Burke and a Pat Hoban.

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Bazunu's case is obvious. He's not a L1 player.
McClean could easily be playing for Derry this year! Ogbene isn't too far away from the LoI.
Sykes is a prospect in a creative position we lack options in and it wouldn't be crazy to suggest someone like Jack Byrne could take that slot in the future.
Parrot similar to Bazunu is on loan and there's no good Irish strikers in LoI right now regardless so Keane is the best of a bad bunch.

Well even I'll agree on Bazunu this time

But I don't think McClean was really on for a Derry move this year. Bit of newspaper gossip I think. Ogbene left the LoI five years ago - I think Jd2793 is correct in noting the gap in facilities and I don't think it's too much to say that he's improved a lot since he was here. "No good strikers in the LoI right now" (which I agree with), and the suggestion of Byrne for Sykes (reasonable, but I think Byrne is probably head and shoulders above any LoI player in the past couple of years) both rather undermine the suggestion that the LoI is L1 standard. (I know also that you weren't making that argument - but it can stand as the answer to Nigel, who did make the point and who has agreed with your summation)

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

If it's fair to assume it's ranking LOI too highly, then why is it not fair to say it ranks League One, League Two or Conference too highly? Or, is it a case that it simply doesn't support your argument?

I gave my reason for that. The data is based on results - league results are fairly easy to work out, but then it tries to compare teams across various leagues which is harder because it requires cross-over games to provide base points - ie European games. So first off, there aren't that many of them (and this is a common issue with other ratings systems, even comparing national sides from different confederations). And given the huge focus LoI sides put on Europe (games postponed, the season changed, and they're probably the biggest games for a club all season) plus the fact that we're often playing sides in pre-season - I think all that could skew things a bit in our favour. It's clearly not reasonable to say Team A is better than Team B purely because A (in mid-season) beats B (in pre-season).

And I noted the other chart in the thread Jd2793 linked which ranked us above both the Romanian and Slovakian leagues, which I don't think is reasonable - we're a long way off them in the UEFA rankings and have an awful record against both leagues in Europe. I can't see us making that gap up in the non-European teams.

**pineapple stu** · 23/03/2022, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

And I'm not saying the vast majority of LoI is L1 level. Read my post.

He's not saying you're saying it

I think "facts are there will always be 1 or 2 at every club capable of playing up to l1 but the VAST majority of this league is not near the level." is quite reasonable. I'd give Rovers a chance (though first thing they should do with their TV money is hire a new manager I think)

**ontheotherhand** · 23/03/2022, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He's not saying you're saying it

I think "facts are there will always be 1 or 2 at every club capable of playing up to l1 but the VAST majority of this league is not near the level." is quite reasonable. I'd give Rovers a chance (though first thing they should do with their TV money is hire a new manager I think)

Christ is this going to turn into a Bradley debate? I can only fight so many battles stu!

The original question was - "Would league of ireland Premier division be similar to league one in uk?" - I'm saying the best we have would be a similar level but the worst we have would be well below. UCD, as you say would get trounced at L1 level, as they tend to be by Rovers in the LoI.

I don't think I agree that 1 or 2 at every LoI club could play L1. I think that any player from the top two or three LoI clubs could but there are huge gaps in talent between the best in the LoI and the worst.

**pineapple stu** · 23/03/2022, 4:56 PM

Ah Bradley is a strange one! I get the feeling Rovers are underachieving under him - which I know is a strange thing to say when you look at his honours list. I think LoI managers are best judged in Europe, and bar one Jack Byrne-inspired campaign (beating Brann and taking Apollon Limassol to extra time), he's flopped there. I don't think he's created a team to really match Kenny's Dundalk either.

But yeah, he's not really part of this at all.

I think I can agree with the best teams here would be LoI level (if we take that as Rovers - and the jury is out on this Derry team) but that the rest would be below it and some would be well below it. I think it looks like there's a big gap between fourth and fifth this season for example, and I could see the bottom six struggling in L2 at best.

**ontheotherhand** · 23/03/2022, 5:00 PM

I'd love to debate that with someone who would approach it in good faith but I don't trust this forum not to get involved stu so probably best left alone for now....

**tetsujin1979** · 08/04/2022, 11:38 PM

A (belated) Happy Rex Manning day to you all

**SkStu** · 09/10/2022, 5:01 PM

Tested positive for Covid this morning. First bout of it and I feel like absolute sh!t? fever, chills, aches, phlegmmy cough. Ugh?

**dahamsta** · 10/10/2022, 2:10 PM

After all this time! I got booster 2 last week, just walked in off the street, one small advantage of being 50+. Hopefully that'll tide me over for a while more.

Hope you feel better soon, don't envy you one bit.