Andy Reid's exclusion

**Wheels** · 22/08/2008, 11:54 AM

Another worrying aspect of this is what it means for James McCarthy... will he be thought 'too creative' as well??

**Stuttgart88** · 22/08/2008, 12:07 PM

I think Doyle's place may be at risk in the near term. I also think we may have to ditch our traditional 2 wide men system and play a bit narrower (4-2-3-1) with the full backs adding width where necessary. I don't think Trappatoni has ruled out Reid at all, nor Carsley. The onus is certainly on them to play their way in but no harm in having competition.

The only inconsistency I've seen in Trap's approach has been not picking Delaney at LB in Norway. He seems to have favoured those who impressed in May. If the conditions had stayed firm on wednesday I'd have expected Keogh or even Andy Reid to have come on instead of Murphy in second half.

**Stuttgart88** · 22/08/2008, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Another worrying aspect of this is what it means for James McCarthy... will he be thought 'too creative' as well??

Is he a creative player? i've yet to see him but I get the impression that he's more of a Keane type midfilder. I wouldn't be worried at all, especially as he's so young anyway.

There is room for creativity in the team, just not too much of it! The first half on Wednesday was the most balanced, orthodox and cohesive I've seen us play since the first 30 mins in Paris on 2004 so I think it's a bit "Irish" to only focus on the debatable negatives.

**shakermaker1982** · 22/08/2008, 12:30 PM

Andy Reid very rarely has a bad game for us. When he's brought into the team he enhances our play and was brilliant against the Germans. If anything when fit he's our most consistent player. It must really irk him that Miller and Whelan are ahead of him in the pecking order. McGeady? Another average game for us and his place looks safe if I'm interpretating the Trap's comments correctly. Stephen Reid could easily play the holding midfielder role but with the added potency of being able to zip the ball around. This policy of '6 defensive minded players' and '4 attacking players' puts a lot of pressure on Keane, Duff, McGeady and Doyle. I thought we lacked Reid's vision Wednesday night - I really hope he can force his way back into the mix.

**Wheels** · 22/08/2008, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Is he a creative player? i've yet to see him but I get the impression that he's more of a Keane type midfilder.

He seems to be more akin to Gerrard... but early days as you say.

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think it's a bit "Irish" to only focus on the debatable negatives.

It's hard to discuss the 'undebatable' ones

**zenokelly** · 22/08/2008, 12:57 PM

The peculiar thing about this is that the player that you can count on making the decisive final tackles and tracking back, and who is in no sense attacking was left out of the squad, Lee Carsley. I'd have him in there ahead of Whelan if Reid is not going to be picked and possesses more physicality. Bemusing in every sense of the word, but Trap knows a lot more than me.

**Stuttgart88** · 22/08/2008, 1:38 PM

I have to say I was astonished how poor Carsley's distribution was against Brazil. Whelan is more composed on the ball, Carsley more aggressive in the tackle.

Our ball retention for most of the first half was the best it's been for a long time and I felt our CM had a presence about it that it's been lacking for ages.

Whelan was given a chance and he took it in fairness. Put it this way, I think I'd prefer S. Reid & Whelan than Carsley and Andy Reid, despite a good showing by the latter two against Germany. Steven Reid is the key for me. Great to have him back, though for me he and Andy Reid is the dream team.

**bobloblaw** · 22/08/2008, 2:43 PM

Has to be in the team. Our most creative talent, by a long way. So drop Doyle and play Andy in a three man midfield. Easy.

Even playing him on the wing would be a poor decision, get him in the middle pulling the strings.

**lionelhutz** · 22/08/2008, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

Has to be in the team. Our most creative talent, by a long way. So drop Doyle and play Andy in a three man midfield. Easy.

Even playing him on the wing would be a poor decision, get him in the middle pulling the strings.

I think the problem with this is that Keane isn't really suited to the lone front man role - he's much better working off another striker. So if we're to get the best from Keane, I think we do need a physically strong partner for him.

My thinking is that Murphy is more suited as a partner for Keane than Doyle - Doyle has been off form for a while now and he doesn't link up well with Keane. Murphy is more physical than Doyle and seems to get involved more.

I definitely believe A. Reid has to be in the team. If Trap wants four "attack" minded players, I'd drop McGeady, start Hunt on the left and drop Whelan and start Reid in the middle. So the following would be your startin 11 which I think would suit Trap's style;

Given

Finnan Dunne McShane Kilbane

Duff S. Reid A. Reid Hunt

Murphy Keane

**bobloblaw** · 22/08/2008, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by lionelhutz

I think the problem with this is that Keane isn't really suited to the lone front man role - he's much better working off another striker. So if we're to get the best from Keane, I think we do need a physically strong partner for him.

If you've got lemons, make lemonade.

Seriously though, personally I'd go with the two Reids in the middle, but if Trap doesn't think that midfield is combative enough then you have to look for alternatives and I'd do all i could to get Andy in the team. Plus its not as if Keane and Doyle have ever really hit it off. And when you look at how we were knocking it about at times in the first half against Norway then i don't see the little n' large combination up front being a necessity. If we could get A. Reid, Keane, and the two wingers mixing it up in the final third we'll have more joy imo.

**eirebhoy** · 23/08/2008, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by lionelhutz

I think the problem with this is that Keane isn't really suited to the lone front man role - he's much better working off another striker. So if we're to get the best from Keane, I think we do need a physically strong partner for him.

My thinking is that Murphy is more suited as a partner for Keane than Doyle - Doyle has been off form for a while now and he doesn't link up well with Keane. Murphy is more physical than Doyle and seems to get involved more.

Slovakia at home showed that Doyle is more than capable of filling that role. He played the lone striker role and was superb. And that was being man marked by Skrtel who most of us would know a lot more about now. A few comments from that post match thread:

"Doyle showed how to play the lone striker role, fantastic game."

"Doyle showed how a cental striker should perform..."

"Doyle playing the lone striker role perfectly"

"luckily in Doyle we've a striker thats good in the air and has a great ability to hold play up"

"Brilliant, a real centre forward. Scored, created chances, held the ball up well to allow Duff and McGeady to get up and won plenty of ball of their defenders."

"Thought Doyle led the line brilliantly - took the clatters the opposition dished out and laid the ball off intelligently. Took his goal very well."

He's a much better player than Murphy. He's even better in the air imo. We're not going to be playing a long ball game so the most important thing is that the striker is good at holding up the ball and latching onto through balls. I think Doyle's a really underrated player tbh.

**irishultra** · 23/08/2008, 12:22 PM

Just watching Doyle now, his all round game is very good but you can see he's not confident in front of goal. He needs to get more hungary and try to get into posions more.

Just missed a peno.

**NeilMcD** · 23/08/2008, 12:53 PM

Kevin Doyle has improved every time he has stepped up a level and I think he now needs to step up another level so I think a move for him would be great. I think he would do really well at Villa too with good fast wingers beside him like Young and Abon...... I think Eirebhoy is dead right too that he can play the lone striker role and I do think if Robbie Keane was ever injured that Andy Reid would be perfect for the role behind Doyle.

**Noelys Guitar** · 23/08/2008, 2:53 PM

Reid has been excellent first half against spurs. Brady and Tardelli are at the match.

**NeilMcD** · 23/08/2008, 3:07 PM

Where you watching that Noely

**Noelys Guitar** · 23/08/2008, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Where you watching that Noely

Foxsoccer. You can get it online Neil (dodgy channel land).Reid tired a bit after spurs scored and then got a second wind. Made a great defensive tackle on Modric late on . Miller came on for Reid last 4 mins. Very impressed with Reid today. I was watching the game in Trap mode ie trying to see how Reid would fit into Trap's plans. The late saving tackle on Modric and his overall defensive play suggest to me Reid should be in ahead of Whelan on this display. 8/10 performance.

**irishultra** · 23/08/2008, 4:43 PM

Great news on Reid. Hopefully they give a good report on him and Trap trusts Andy in midfield although his hand might be dealt with an injury to Duffer.

**shakermaker1982** · 23/08/2008, 5:33 PM

good to hear Reidy having a blinder today. Looking forward to watching the game on MOTD + Given's penalty save.

**Noelys Guitar** · 23/08/2008, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

good to hear Reidy having a blinder today. Looking forward to watching the game on MOTD + Given's penalty save.

Look out for Murphy's cross to Cisse for Sunderland's second goal. Pure class. Murphy is a bit of an enigma. Can't get off the ground to head the ball. Is no target man. But put him out on the left wing and he will supply 3 or 4 world class crosses a game (without getting to the end line).

**lionelhutz** · 26/08/2008, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Slovakia at home showed that Doyle is more than capable of filling that role. He played the lone striker role and was superb. And that was being man marked by Skrtel who most of us would know a lot more about now. A few comments from that post match thread:

"Doyle showed how to play the lone striker role, fantastic game."

"Doyle showed how a cental striker should perform..."

"Doyle playing the lone striker role perfectly"

"luckily in Doyle we've a striker thats good in the air and has a great ability to hold play up"

"Brilliant, a real centre forward. Scored, created chances, held the ball up well to allow Duff and McGeady to get up and won plenty of ball of their defenders."

"Thought Doyle led the line brilliantly - took the clatters the opposition dished out and laid the ball off intelligently. Took his goal very well."

He's a much better player than Murphy. He's even better in the air imo. We're not going to be playing a long ball game so the most important thing is that the striker is good at holding up the ball and latching onto through balls. I think Doyle's a really underrated player tbh.

I agree but I still believe Keane has to play. I think Doyle is excellent working as a lone striker but what about his partnership with Keane. I don't think it's ever sparked into life in a meaningful game. Plus Doyle seems a little short of confidence at the moment and I'd like to see how Murphy would do alongside Keane.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Doyle go to Villa and start playing like he was the season before last. Then there's no question he would be a better option than Murphy and the Keane/Doyle partnership should be worked on extensively on the training ground. But the reality is he's been off form for over a year now and Murphy should be given his chance.