QuoteI think a regional pyramid system is the best and most cost effective way. AIL first division would be a disaster in terms of cost.Originally Posted by citybone
I guess for one season that would be acceptable but only 1 AIL no 1st division! just have a pyramid system which has a IL and a LOI prem the following year.
west cork district league
west cork commandos
I think a regional pyramid system is the best and most cost effective way. AIL first division would be a disaster in terms of cost.
The Hallion Battalion Molests football.:D
I couldn't see it being any worse than the current LOI First Division.. In fact, it'd probably suit Dundalk FC a lot more in terms of cost!
Although a regional pyramid system would probably make more sense alright..
Who's to say the Regional pyramid cannot include the likes of Dundalk in the Northern region? I don't nesserilly think that there should be a Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland split if the scenario of an AIL happens.
The Hallion Battalion Molests football.:D
Surely for any AIL to go ahead, the LOI and IL would have to remain underneath it (split along the existing ROI/NI border). This would allow both the IFA and the FAI to continue as they are and to justify separate international teams. If all division were to have an all-Ireland element, I couldn't see UEFA allowing the FAI and IFA to continue as separate associations..
To be honest, I think the whole notion is pie in the sky, just like Rangers and Celtic joining the Premier League in England.
The Hallion Battalion Molests football.:D
I think all the financial chaos amongst some of the LoI clubs has well and truly shot down this idea. On the plus side though it may make the two leagues a bit more equal which can only be good for the setanta cup.
I think if an AIL goes ahead, then all teams must be included, north and south of the border. No good bringing some and leaving others, otherwise the other teams won't survive. I'd suggest there be a pathway for all teams into it
did anyone suggest otherwise? there would have t be a relegation/promotion between leagues
west cork district league
west cork commandos
Yes Platinum 1 did, and alot of other rumours that were mooted was there would only be a 10/12 team AIL
Any AIL should have 16 teams in the top flight playing each other home and away.
30 league games all played at the weekend weather permitting of course.
If there was a 16 team AIL I'd go with:
Linfield
Glentoran
Portadown
Cliftonville
Coleraine
Crusaders
Bohemians
St Pats Athletic
Dundalk
Cork
Derry
Galway Utd
Shamrock Rvs
Sligo Rovers
Bray Wanderers
Drogheda Utd
First Division
Lisburn Distillery
Dungannon
Glenavon
Ballymena
Newry
Institute
Sporting Fingal
Shelbourne
Waterford
Limerick
UCD
Finn Harps
Then I would have regionalised leagues below that.
e.g. South: Monaghan, Wexford, Longford, Mervue, Kildare, Athlone, Tralee, Carlow, Castlebar, Salthill, Cobh, Portlaoise
I am not averse to an AIL in principle, so long as it did not compromise the existence of the IFA and separate NI team etc.
As to how to go about it, the following basic idea was suggested elsewhere on this forum a while back, to which I have made a couple of amendments. I think it has a lot going for it.
Basically, you would start with a 20 team League, made up of 10 each from the IL and LOI (I know, I know, but bear with me!)
The season would be divided in two, a "Domestic" stage, followed by an "All-Island" one. In the opening Domestic stage, each of the IL teams would only play each other home and away, as would each of the LOI clubs, making a total of 18 games for each club.
For the second "All-Island" stage, each IL team would only play LOI teams home and away, and vice versa, thereby giving a further 20 games for each club (38 in all). At the end of this, then the All-Ireland Champions would be known, and the Sponsors' AIL prize money distributed accordingly.
To my mind, this has a number of advantages, plus no significant disadvantages which I can think of.
1. It would retain the separate identities of the two Leagues/Associations, and allow the winners of the Domestic Stage to proclaim themselves NI or ROI champions etc. Each club would be eligible for their own League's prize money only at this stage.
2. It would also go towards preventing UEFA reducing the total number of European places for Ireland (island), since these would be determined for both IFA and FAI at the end of the Domestic stage.
3. At the end of the Domestic stage, those teams who had finished just outside the top places would still have an incentive to improve in the second (All-Island) stage, since they would still be playing for the honour of calling themselves All-Ireland Champions, plus the increased Sponsors' (All-Ireland) prize money etc.
4. Beneath the AIL, the IFA and FAI would still retain their own separate "feeder" Leagues (called "IL" and "LOI"?). At the end of the AIL season, the two lowest teams from NI would drop out of the AIL, to be replaced by the two top (NI) teams from the IL.
Similarly, the two lowest from ROI would drop out of the AIL, to be replaced by the top two LOI teams.
(The four relegation places would be determined at the end of the All-Island stage, not the Domestic stage, in order to retain interest throughout the whole season; otherwise the clubs who were bottom at the end of the domestic season would have nothing to play for after the opening 18 games)
5. If the AIL was held over a calendar year i.e. starting, say, in February, this would mean that fans would only have to travel locally during the bad weather and short days etc. Correspondingly, the longer journeys would be staged during the Summer/Autumn (better weather, longer days).
6. The AIL Fixture List could also be arranged to accommodate the IFA and FAI to go on holding their traditional domestic Cups, as before, with no change to the format or entry criteria etc. That way history and tradition, and local rivalries etc, could be maintained as before.
Obviously, people will be concerned by starting off with equal numbers of NI and ROI clubs making up the new League. However, I would suggest this could be addressed in two ways.
First, Derry City could revert to being an NI club! OK, I know they still have bad memories of the events which caused them to join the LOI, but times have changed since then.
Moreover, they could "justify" this change by pointing out that they would now be competing in a genuinely All-Ireland League.
Additionally, they would be much better placed to receive Development Grants etc from Stormont, to compensate (I believe) for having been turned down recently by the Dublin Government on the basis that they are not within the juridiction(?).
Besides, afaik they are still technically Members of the IFA, and would arguably find it easier to qualify for Europe in competition with other Northern sides at the end of the Domestic stage, than they do presently competing against Southern teams in the Eircom.
Second, after a settling-down period (5 years?), the overall AIL structure could be reconfigured to comprise 11 ROI teams and 9 NI teams, should that prove necessary, by adjusting the relegation places from 2 NI and 2 ROI, to 3 NI and 1 ROI.
And if that were still not enough, the process could be repeated after another 5 year period, to leave 12 ROI teams and 8 NI team etc.
However, I would advocate an "equal" start, both to allow NI clubs to "catch up" on the field, but also to allow ROI clubs to sort out their present financial difficulties off the field!
I personally would hope that five years could see NI clubs close the gap somewhat, but if not, then so be it.
Anyhow, those are my ideas. How do they sound to fans of other clubs, especially from the Eircom?
That's basically a jazzed-up version of the Setanta Cup you are suggesting there EG.
I'd be fairly strongly against the idea of an AIL. I don't think it offers any real tangible benefits - for all of the League of Ireland clubs. Why people would willing push aside the "smaller" LOI clubs for the benefit of league clubs under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring foootball association is beyond me.
Both the League of Ireland and the North-Eastern Irish League have their problems but bringing the two leagues together is not going to reduce these problems. Rather it will magnify them.
Let me see, now.
A Setanta Cup of 9 teams, heavily weighted towards two cities (Dublin/Belfast) and one region (ROI), playing between 4 and 7 games per season on a knock-out basis, essentially for Prize money and the (highly arguable) title of all-Ireland Champions
Versus
An AIL of 20 teams, drawn from all over Ireland, playing 38 games per season on a League basis, with Promotion and Relegation, and European Places at stake, plus the unarguable title of All-Ireland champions at the end, whilst all the time retaining an IL and LOI element which has existed for nearly a century
I cannot believe how I didn't see the similarity...
Fair enough, though some slightly more cogent reasoning for your opinion than the rest of your post demonstrates would be nice.
"I don't think it offers any real tangible benefits - for all of the Irish League clubs. Why people would willing push aside the "smaller" IL clubs for the benefit of league clubs under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring foootball association is beyond me"
Ever heard of the term "compromise"?
Anyhow, with a population of under six million, two other competing footballing codes on the island, plus the rival attractions of EPL and SPL football on the neighbouring island, Ireland is struggling to maintain two separate Leagues of its own, even on a part-time basis.
Therefore, by pooling the separate resources into one League, with fewer teams overall, it might be hoped that higher standards may be attained, both on and off the field, to the overall benefit of everyone concerned.
Of course there is no guarantee that any such new League would reduce our present problems. Indeed, if badly done, it may (not "will") even magnify them.
However the present situation, whereby the two Leagues keep themselves busy "re-arranging the deck-chairs" on their own section of the "Titanic" that is Irish domestic football, is not doing much to avoid Icebergs, either.
Therefore, if progress is to be made, it will require progressive thinking and a willingness to explore new ideas and methods, to replace those which have demonstrably failed both Leagues for a generation or more.
Of course, none of the requisite progressive thinking and new ideas etc will ever be forthcoming, if left to people whose minds appear so closed they haven't even the manners to use proper titles for their partners in any such venture.
At least that's what this fan of a team from the "North-Eastern Irish League" thinks, anyhow...
Last edited by EalingGreen; 08/04/2009 at 1:50 PM.
1.) A number of LOI clubs have eyed up the idea of an AIL to get themselves out of financial holes.
2.) It would drive the smaller, regional LOI clubs into non-existence.
3.) European Cup places would be reduced - an important money spinner
4.) The LOI is arguably ahead of the IL in terms of standards - a middle-ground would need to be found which would probably entail LOI clubs taking a few steps backwards.
5.) Politics - there's going to be too much compromising.
6.) Setanta Cup has been a relative failure - it hasn't generated any great interest. Cross-border competitions have failed in other parts of the Europe as well.
7.) Need I go on.
There's no progressive thinking behind the AIL proposals. It's all waffle, make-believe rubbish. That's why I'm against it.
Last edited by ifk101; 08/04/2009 at 3:20 PM.
No, a number of LOI clubs eyed up the Platinum proposal to get themselves out of a financial hole etc. What I am suggesting is entirely different.
Why should it (at least any more than the smaller, regional IL clubs, at any rate)?
Football is not organised on a Franchise basis, the way e.g. American Football is, whereby struggling teams get a "leg-up" at the expense of more successful teams, via the new season player draft etc.
With "proper" football, all clubs have to "cut their cloth accordingly", regardless of what League/Division etc they are in. You have not demonstrated why proposal such as I am putting forward will change that.
Indeed, if you look at such a concept in its purest form - the EPL - for every Luton Town which goes from top to bottom, there is a Wigan Athletic which does the same in reverse.
Quite clearly, the difference is nothing to do with how League football was re-organised in England and everything to do with crap management at Luton, and excellent management at Wigan.
How? My proposal quite clearly leaves room for an NI "Championship" and a (separate) LOI "Championship", with each having a 10 team/18 game stage played during the initial "domestic" stage of the AIL.
And with the IFA and FAI each continuing to adminster football at every other level in their respective jurisdictions, what excuse would UEFA have for reducing their respective European entries?
You presumably are aware of the Royal League; that did not cause UEFA to reduce European places for the Associations behind that.
No "arguably" about it, imo. But you haven't demonstrated why LOI teams would get "dragged down" by such a proposal, any more than IL clubs would get "dragged up".
In the end, the best teams will rise to the top and the weakest teams will sink to the bottom.
If, after a suitable period, it is clear that the LOI has more than 10 clubs "fit" to play in the AIL and the IL correspondingly fewer, I would happily accept the initial 10:10 balance being reconfigured to 11:9 or even 12:8 (bearing in mind that Derry City would be considered an NI/IL club from the start, btw).
And/or it might be thought better to reduce the AIL to 18 or even 16 clubs, to address any imbalance.
It's not a question of "too much" compromising (or too little, for that matter). The whole point about compromise is that it be fair (and seen to be so).
You have not demonstrated how my suggestion, and the compromises contained therein, are unfair to any of the parties involved.
Perhaps you are confusing "compromise" with "radicalism"?
Agree it hasn't been successful. Yet.
Then again, my suggestion is significantly different from the SC in several key respects, as outlined by me earlier (and ignored by you, btw).
As for the rest of Europe, aren't we always being told that "Ireland is different"?
Anyhow, I am nowhere claiming that my suggestion is a "sure-fire winner", but neither can you assert that it must be flawed on the basis that other (only vaguely) similar ventures were proven to have flaws of their own.
Otherwise we wouldn't have invented powered flight, if the Wright Brothers had just said: "Well, none of the others have ever got off the ground, so there's no point in our trying!"
Much more pertinent in explaining such failures (imo) is the hostility of UEFA to the concept generally, plus the opposition by already reasonably successful domestic Leagues which felt threatened.
Neither such consideration need apply in this particular instance (imo).
If that's all you have, it's probably better for all of us if you don't!
Excuse me, but I think there's rather more "progressive thinking" behind what I (and others) have posted, than anything to be found in the cynical, negative, repetitive and unsubstantiated polemic which you have posted.
As for it being all "waffle" and "make-believe rubbish", you are entitled to such an opinion; indeed that opinion may even be correct, it's just you haven't posted anything which demonstrates that it is so.
Perhaps you've spent too long outside in the Scandinavian winter without a proper hat?
The bolded part of your quote takes away any credibility you have. The name is Nothern Ireland or NI. You wont melt by giving it the proper name.
The Hallion Battalion Molests football.:D
Given that the term "southern teams" was used previous to my post in this thread, I thought I'd also indulge myself in a bit of geography.
... and you saved your last smiley for that comment.Perhaps you've spent too long outside in the Scandinavian winter without a proper hat?
Your proposal is as follows,
1.) Reduced league fixture list for the LOI and IL
2.) Increased participation in a "new" All-Ireland "league" competition
3.) The dropping of the semi-final and final stage of the Setanta Cup.
And you're telling me this is not just a jazzed-up version of the current Setanta Cup?
For this to work EG there would have to be a substantial carrot at the end of it - and I mean something better than being called "All-Ireland" champions. Why would Club A, after winning their domestic league, securing the prize money and securing their place in Europe, bother their arses to take part in a competition that is unlikely to give much monetary gain - in terms of gate receipts, sponsorships and prize money - as evident by the success/failure of the current Setanta Cup?
How do the respective club pay their players? If the substantial part of their incomes is generated by their domestic seasons, do they pay their players for a 18 game season and field youth players in the All-Ireland league? Would this be acceptable to players - remember a number of LOI clubs are operating as professional clubs?
The players are paid with some of the hundreds of millions of pounds of revenue that one home game with Linfield will provide.
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