Ireland to play at Parkhead?

**Duncan Gardner** · 26/09/2003, 10:33 AM

Okay, for starters I'm an ex-member of Fine Gael and a quick search of my wallet reveals the ten-bob note I borrowed from Davros at his political education class in the pub last week. Also the phone number of a publisher called Celia. Wonder if she's free for lunch...Brian who?

Actually, Brian and Bertie may not be making the steady progress- ie, towards reopening of Stormont- that they claim. With BA now more unpopular than ever and St Gerard leading the polls in the south, like you I'll be watching events with interest

PS Davros has asked me to correct that in fact he left the country at the age of three, not two.

**Junior** · 26/09/2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by liamon
You live in London and you rant about nationalsit aspirations. Have you joined the National Front then?

And having been to Parkhead, I can say it's a Scottish club. Very proud to be scottish. Incredibly proud of the fact that it's European Cup winning team were all Scottish and all from within 15 (?) miles of the club. Strong links to local (Scottish) community.

The fact that a few thousand sectarian idiots support them, doesn't make them Irish.

In summary....Scottish, not Irish.

I don't want to continue the whole debate of Scottis or Irish? as Ive read this a million different times on various Celtic and Irish forums. However, the 'pro scopttish club' posts on this discussion do fail to even acknowledge that the club was founded by an Irishman FOR the Irish people, call them a Scottish club if you choose to, but I think the very roots of this great club should not be ignored nor treated with such disdain.

Jnr

**Duncan Gardner** · 26/09/2003, 11:11 AM

Junior- I'm quite content to acknowledge Celtic's roots. They are, and probably always will be, a Scottish club with large Irish support because of these. I don't see anyone denying that on here, certainly not the post you referred. Most Irish Celtic fans recognise that it's a foreign club, like Liverpool or ManU- albeit with particularly close links to the 'mother' country, if you like. Will that do as a compromise?

**lopez** · 26/09/2003, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
...when they played St Pats in 1998 in Tolka - and getting called a hun/orange ******* by IRISH Celtic fans for supporting St Patrick's Athletic - who are an IRISH team, with 9 Irishmen in their starting eleven.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. A few of Celtic's supporters are just completely fukcd up. To them you (and Bohemians) are orange *******os because one of you're founders was probably CoI. By there logic all of us are Orange *******os cos we've had two Prod presidents.

I heard a story of one Celt on the train back from Stuttgart to Munich (probably the two biggest Catholic cities in Germany) shout as a bloke wearing an Bayern Munich shirt walk past, 'I smell a Prod.' Very PC!

Originally posted by davros

Also met some of their fans,who were supportive of our nationalistic aspirations,as I am of theirs;so not all bad,then!

Yeah, like how many Jox have been found guilty (or not guilty) of murdering our northern brothers, while serving 'Queen and Country'. Nationalist aspirations mi culo.

Originally posted by junior

the 'pro scopttish club' posts on this discussion do fail to even acknowledge that the club was founded by an Irishman FOR the Irish people, call them a Scottish club if you choose to, but I think the very roots of this great club should not be ignored nor treated with such disdain.

Sadly for many people, when you leave the 26C you become persona non grata. Celtic was founded by an Irishman for the Irish community and unlike Millwall, Corinthians Sao Paulo and Palmeiras (founded by Scots, Spanish and Italians respectively) are no longer supported by the ethnic group they were founded for. But having said that, davros' point about that 'not more Celtic fans followed Ireland' sums it all up. Most Scottish Celtic fans support Scotland or nothing. And the nothing is probably because Celtic players were booed while playing for Scotland years ago.

While I too accept Celtic's Irish links, the things I dislike is firstly the hypocrisy surrounding Rangers' discrimination towards Catholics (to paraphrase an anti-apartheid song, not only did Celtic continue to 'play Hun City', but it suited them that while Rangers would not sign Catholics, they would be able to sign them instead) and secondly this 'duo-ity' of Ireland and Celtic where they are like the trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: one yet two at the same time. Celtic is just a football club.

To Davros and DG, are you by any way married?

**Junior** · 26/09/2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Junior- I'm quite content to acknowledge Celtic's roots. They are, and probably always will be, a Scottish club with large Irish support because of these. I don't see anyone denying that on here, certainly not the post you referred. Most Irish Celtic fans recognise that it's a foreign club, like Liverpool or ManU- albeit with particularly close links to the 'mother' country, if you like. Will that do as a compromise?

The difference with Celtic and ManU/Lpool is that Celtic were actually formed for the Irish people not an insignificant difference than, say, just having a large support of Irish.

I think its comments such as 'The fact that a few thousand sectarian idiots support them, doesn't make them Irish' that for me, suggest these roots are not being taken into consideration.

I'm not suggesting you have the same outlook,as it appears from your post that you have a more level headed view on this.

**Junior** · 26/09/2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by lopez
Sadly for many people, when you leave the 26C you become persona non grata. Celtic was founded by an Irishman for the Irish community and unlike Millwall, Corinthians Sao Paulo and Palmeiras (founded by Scots, Spanish and Italians respectively) are no longer supported by the ethnic group they were founded for.

Lopez, am I reading this correctly - are you suggesting that Celtic are no longer supported by the Irish community? surely not??

**lopez** · 26/09/2003, 12:22 PM

My mishtake.

I meant to say '...and unlike Millwall, Corinthians Sao Paulo and Palmeiras (founded by Scots, Spanish and Italians respectively) who are no longer supported by the ethnic group they were founded for, Celtic still are.'

I hope that clears that up. Cheers!

**Junior** · 26/09/2003, 12:36 PM

glad Ididn't go off on a rant now !!!!

**liamon** · 26/09/2003, 1:32 PM

Originally posted by Junior
The difference with Celtic and ManU/Lpool is that Celtic were actually formed for the Irish people not an insignificant difference than, say, just having a large support of Irish.

I think its comments such as 'The fact that a few thousand sectarian idiots support them, doesn't make them Irish' that for me, suggest these roots are not being taken into consideration.

I am well aware of the origins of the club. The club draws a lot of support from Ireland. I'm included in that group. Been there, bought the jersey. However, it's my opinion that the club is not an Irish club. It's Scottish. There are strong historical links to Ireland, but it's still Scottish.

Americans may have "Oirish" ancestry from 5 generations back, but that doesn't make them Irish.

**Junior** · 26/09/2003, 1:51 PM

Originally posted by liamon
I am well aware of the origins of the club. The club draws a lot of support from Ireland. I'm included in that group. Been there, bought the jersey. However, it's my opinion that the club is not an Irish club. It's Scottish. There are strong historical links to Ireland, but it's still Scottish.

Americans may have "Oirish" ancestry from 5 generations back, but that doesn't make them Irish.

Fine, however, you can see how your comment didn't exactly portrait that message?

Out of interest how many generations back do you have to go before not being Irish?

**liamon** · 26/09/2003, 2:14 PM

I think the UEFA regulation is that if your grannie was Irish....

**liamon** · 26/09/2003, 3:11 PM

Originally posted by davros

you can say what you like,but 50+ CSC's in Ireland & the vast majority of Celtic fans consider themselves Irish,even if their ancestors emigrated generations ago.......Even if not'technically'�rish,surely how they feel & nationalistic aspirations are good enough in my book.
They & many others are proud to be part of the Irish Diaspora......what's the problem,not parochial enough for you?!

Well, isn't that shocking. CSC's in Ireland consider themsleves Irish.

As for the residents of Glasgow that support Celtic, I don't think they would get behind Ireland if we were playing the Scots.

As stated previously, I've nothing aginst Celtic. I'm a fan. I know the links to Ireland that exist. But I don't consider them to be an Irish club. Based in Scotland. Lots of Scots fans. Scottish. That's my opinion, right or wrong.

As for the Diaspora thing, if your granny was Irish, no bother. I have cousins in the UK and USA who come home every now and then. I consider them Irish, despite the foreign accents. But I have no time for muppets who couldn't even find Ireland on the map, yet claim to be "Oirish" coz their great, great grandfather came from Sligo. Same for the muppets who have the misconception that the IRA are great lads and that we're all supporting the fight against de brits.

**Junior** · 26/09/2003, 3:16 PM

Originally posted by liamon
As for the residents of Glasgow that support Celtic, I don't think they would get behind Ireland if we were playing the Scots.

I take it you didn't go to Hampden earlier in the year?

no doubt that the support is split Scotland/Ireland/Other, but to say the residents of Glasgow would not be supporting Ireland is a gross misstatement. You only had to be at this friendly to see that.

**liamon** · 26/09/2003, 3:51 PM

Few quick points, then I'm off for the weekend:

Everyone likes us. Not just the Scots.

Scots lads supporting Ireland doesn't make Celtic an Irish club.

As for some people supporing Ireland, maybe they have strong links to Ireland, beyond Celtic. I don't know why they do support Ireland, and frankly my dear, I just don't give a damn.

Celtic are still not an Irish club.
Nothing against them,
If you want to go see an Irish club, try Cork City, Derry City, Bohs, etc.

**lopez** · 26/09/2003, 9:41 PM

Originally posted by liamon
I think the UEFA regulation is that if your grannie was Irish....

WRONG. That's the Department of Justice regulation for an Irish passport.

Dunno what you've against our American cousins. I went over there, told them I was Irish, and they gave me 'some money for the boys.' I told them I had no kids, but they still insisted.

(Copyright Sean Hughes)

Originally posted by davros

the vast majority of Celtic fans consider themselves Irish,even if their ancestors emigrated generations ago

Unless things have changed since the eighties when I watched Celtic in Europe, you're talking out of your culo, hombre.

Originally posted by junior

I take it you didn't go to Hampden earlier in the year?

no doubt that the support is split Scotland/Ireland/Other, but to say the residents of Glasgow would not be supporting Ireland is a gross misstatement. You only had to be at this friendly to see that.

Where are the Celtic fans from Glasgow at Ireland games outside Scotland? There's loads from London and the SE, Birmingham, Manchester, Leicester, Luton. I know two from Glasgow, both 2nd generation, and that's it. Yeah they were going to bring 3,000 in 1995 to Lisbon. Cojones. Davros watches Celtic in Europe, so do loads others. It can't be that more difficult to reciprocate, and follow your country abroad.

**Junior** · 27/09/2003, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by lopez

Where are the Celtic fans from Glasgow at Ireland games outside Scotland? There's loads from London and the SE, Birmingham, Manchester, Leicester, Luton. I know two from Glasgow, both 2nd generation, and that's it. Yeah they were going to bring 3,000 in 1995 to Lisbon. Cojones. Davros watches Celtic in Europe, so do loads others. It can't be that more difficult to reciprocate, and follow your country abroad.

Agreed, I think I even know the 2 you are on about (brother and sister by any chance?)

I think the fact is that a large proportion of the Celtic support are not interested in the slightest by International football, and hence you don't tend to hear many Irish supporters with scottish accents.

However, if asked who they would be up for in a ROI v Scotland game, a significant number would support the ROI (be it from an armchair perspective or similar...)

Jnr

**lopez** · 27/09/2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Junior
Agreed, I think I even know the 2 you are on about (brother and sister by any chance?)

They're the ones.

I was at the 1985 Scottish final and met these lads who said they hated Scotland and supported Ireland. Never saw them again. On the other hand I bumped into Ray Houghton's countless brothers in 1987 and they were all supporting the nation of their birth.

Liverpool and Glasgow are the two biggest Catholic cities per population (and by virtue, containing the largest ethnic - Irish communities) but I rarely see any Scousers either. The cities that provide the Irish fans from Britain are all high with post-war immigration (and therefore have a large 2nd generation Irish population), rather than with Liverpool and Glasgow whose immigration was mostly in the 19th Century.

**Junior** · 27/09/2003, 2:58 PM

Originally posted by lopez
They're the ones.

I was at the 1985 Scottish final and met these lads who said they hated Scotland and supported Ireland. Never saw them again. On the other hand I bumped into Ray Houghton's countless brothers in 1987 and they were all supporting the nation of their birth.

Liverpool and Glasgow are the two biggest Catholic cities per population (and by virtue, containing the largest ethnic - Irish communities) but I rarely see any Scousers either. The cities that provide the Irish fans from Britain are all high with post-war immigration (and therefore have a large 2nd generation Irish population), rather than with Liverpool and Glasgow whose immigration was mostly in the 19th Century.

Its an interesting point and one I've never really thought about before, but like yourself I know plenty of Mancs,Brummies, Londoners and even a few Cider drinkers from Bristol (who I'm sure you know) but no Scousers and apart from R & D no Glaswegians.

**nlgbbbblth** · 27/09/2003, 7:27 PM

Originally posted by davros

When I wore a Celtic top'@ the Scotland friendly,the'famous Tartan army'said they were surprised,that not more Celtic fans followed Ireland!Also met some of their fans,who were supportive of our nationalistic aspirations,as I am of theirs;so not all bad,then!

the Ireland v Scotland friendly?

funny that,

when I go and see Ireland play I wear an Irish jersey or NO jersey

not the jersey of a foreign club

**BanagherOK!** · 28/09/2003, 6:02 AM

"when I go and see Ireland play I wear an Irish jersey or NO jersey

not the jersey of a foreign club"

Orangemen always refer to people from the south as foreigners,,wether you like it or not most people around europe see Celtic as being more Irish than Scottish,,,,maybe thats why they like them so much :-)