Again, arguing on semantics, but I've no problem believing that year 1 attendences would increase 150%, as we have plenty of examples of bandwagon jumping at most clubs at some stage or other, its sustaining these crowds going forward that is the Holy Grail.
Edit: Jinxy beat me to the point!
Nope. Read the top of page 51 where they're justifying charging €100k entry fee.Originally Posted by GavinZac
Would a bandwagon effect last a full season? Most promoted teams have a jump in crowds at the start of their premier season but drop back as they struggle. Would it be much different in an AIL seeing as only two teams would be new?
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Sarcasm generally takes the form of a statement one makes in the hope that the contrast with the truth will be obvious. It can be a form of an insult or of humour. If "fintan drury and the blockheads" is sarcasm as you claim, then the 'statement' (albeit made with all the grammatical finesse of a 2 year shouting "want bockle!") if we can, er, transliterate, is "Fintan Drury and his group, Platinum One have blocks for heads", and we can assume you believe the opposite.
Personally I'd say you'd want to put down the ould shovel now.
Back on-topic, while obviously the challenge would be to maintain the higher crowds in the long run, at very least such big increases would make clubs more solvent and easier to lend to in confidence that they can't muck it up and make fools of themselves and their banks.
Your Chairperson,
Gavin
Membership Advisory Board
"Ex Bardus , Vicis"
The whole thing is silly , 10 teams, assuming Galway got relegated this year , at the end of next season they intend to discard 4 of the remaining ten teams(40%) to let in Galway, Limerick , Linfield and Glentoran and close the promotion/relagation door for a few seasons.
there's a link to the proposal document earlier in the thread and it suggests that there would have to be a mechanism in the promotion froim IL / el that would secure the ratio of teams from north and south. to steal a phrase from the recent lisbon debate, I suppose you could call it Qualified Majority Promotion. it's very vague though and probably relies on the premise that both the above won't get themselves in to that situation.
the document itself is worth reading and rather than getting bogged down in why it mightnt work, it's worth exploring why it might happen (as opposed to whether it may or may not work). a couple of things jumped out at me:
- Drury and co have stated up front that it cant happen without the cooperation of the IFA / FAI and UEFA. It's stating the obvious, but at least that is formally acknowledged
- the political system will probably have the greatest impact- Dermot Ahern is on record of being in favour of an AIL - because ultimately, if it's going to be a success, there is a requirement for significant capital investment a large proportion of which will come from government coffers. So if there is substantial political support on both sides, there's a far greater chance of success in getting it off the ground
- although platinum are trying to differentiate between their proposal and the roles of the associations as promoters of national team / developing the game, they are providing for an underage apprenticeship system which to me could conflict with the FAI's technical plan and their desire to create a 'pathway' to a professional career including the provision of regional centres of excellence. This has huge implications in terms of securing funding for developing facilities at a regional level by the clubs that are excluded form the AIL if the thrust of government funding is centred around stadium development for the AIL teams
- the 150% increase in gates is based on an example in the document and focusses on average attendances for a full EL season, versus average attendances against the EL clubs that would be part of the new league. In the first year, i don't think it's unrealistic at all, certainly for the dublin clubs
for me, the jury is out on this - there's too much detail to come out yet and the proposal is the first salvo in what will no doubt be a long series of negotiations behind the scenes, that will water down the proposal to some extent.
But i think, it can happen if there is serious political support/pressure put on the associations in a way that won't impact their international standing.
former (!) webmaster for sligorovers.com
Given clubs have mentioned the 65% wage cap as part of the reason they've been letting players go when they have, I don't think it's a supposition in the slightest.Isn't that a supposition?
But getting back to your point, the wage cap should act as a preventative rather than a detective control over excessive spending, which means that it actually proves the wage cap ISN'T working.
Also, how can the wage cap act as a preventative control? What more do you think the FAI would have to do? They can't control what clubs do, they can't sign cheques for them or sign their contracts - they can only see what they've done and tell them to calm down. I've no problems with that.
Wrong. Per the attendances thread (which is using official Cork figures), your crowds have gone up from 2897 to 3454 this season, an increase of 19%. It's a decent increase, but it's way away from a 150% increase, which would see you up to 8635 in this hypothetical 2008/09 season.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 21/07/2008 at 3:04 PM.
My apologies, our attendances never averaged at 2000, i took Schumi's usually accurate figures but it seems ours were closer to 3000 than 2000 last season. Still - if the goal is 5000 then 3500 isn't a million miles off it, and as Paraic pointed out, the 150% is on average for the entire league, which would make it quite possible if 'sleeping giants' akin to Bohs and Pats attracted the sort of crowds they deserve; Cork's don't need to rise 150% to be respectable.
Your Chairperson,
Gavin
Membership Advisory Board
"Ex Bardus , Vicis"
I fear you misunderstand. I wasn't concerned about NI (the country's) independence being threatened by this proposal. Rather it was the independence of the IFA and the NI international football team.
That is, if properly constituted, we could survive the existence of a 10 or 12 team AIL. But that's a hell of a sight different from doing away with the (rump) Irish League entirely and handing stewardship over the clubs from the IFA to Platinum.
Many of us in NI would see that as a first step on a slippery slope down which we simply will not go.
They can shove it.
Sorry, 2,000 was a complete guess off the top of my head, I didn't realise your crowds were that high. A 150% increase on your current 3,500 would breach your capacity so!
Change Cork to Pats or Bohs or whoever else then. Do you see an across the board 3,000 increase in average crowds from an AIL? I could see it at the start as a novelty but I can't see it being sustained. Hyping a product might work at the start but it'll mostly be the same players playing in the same stadia for the same teams that people don't go to see now.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Not wishing to stir, but as the Document itself acknowledges, NI does at least have some powerful "brands" - marketing-speak for clubs which have a proud tradition and historic support etc, even if they are currently down on their uppers.
Which is only a reflection of the fact that historically (up until the Troubles?), the IL was stronger than the LOI. Indeed, there is an argument for saying Belfast is the traditional "football capital" of Ireland.
Therefore, if this new AIPL is as wonderful as they say, and beneficial all round, in time we could see P&R work in such a way as to see NI clubs greatly increase their share of the 10 (or 12).
Alternatively, you could see Dublin supply 4 or 5 clubs, with the rest of the Southern clubs all from the East Coast.
Neither prospect would please Platinum, or their sponsors/TV backers etc, who seem to demand the widest possible geographical spread, regardless of whether it reflects the true footballing strongholds on the island.
Yet another contradiction in this scheme, which the backers either don't understand or (more likely) prefer to deny.
We don't often agree but sitting here PMSL.
http://pix.ie/widgets/generate/accou...000-F5F5FF.jpg
"It's time for the FAI to grow up." John O'Donoghue, Minister for Sport, RTE , Sunday 7 Nov 2004
There is a basic problem with any League which only has 10 clubs, playing a 36 game season i.e. fans will quickly get bored with playing the same nine teams four times a season (plus Cup games?).
But if there is regular and widespread P&R, this offers the opportunity to keep things fresh.
But if there is only one club coming up each season, derived from the same handful of clubs every time, and the promoted club is invariably doomed to go back down after a season or two, then it does nothing for the League, in terms of keeping fans interested.
Moreover, it does nothing for the yo yo clubs themselves, or their fans.
And remember, this whole league is to be financed basically by sponsors (plus mythical Government support). And for the sponsors to stump up the cash, they need to be getting their product advertised in front of large numbers of TV subscribers.
And if large numbers of barstoolers are going to subscribe, the TV company needs to be able to offer an exciting, competitive product, which effectively means one which attracts lots of punters through the turnstiles (to create a "buzz").
And punters aren't going to keep coming back to a League which eventually develops into the same old same old every season.
That is, a handful of clubs competing at the top, supplemented by a handful of "franchise" clubs only there for non-footballing reasons, with one or two from another handful of "yo yo" clubs, bringing up the rear.
AIL nice idea, but won't work....
bring a few more clubs into the Setanta cup and increase the prize money so that there are 12 or so clubs really benefiting from it financially, then we could see how that goes for 5-8 years.
If the SC had say, 24 teams divided into 6 groups of 4 with home and away ties and then 2 leg qtr final etc. we'd see what our chances were afterwards of rolling out an AIL, the suggested format screws over the NI teams and if they don't buy in then we go no where.
I'm not worried about the status of the Associations, after all if FIFA allow the UK 4 national teams then an AIL should threaten NI/ROI status at all....
I think it's a good idea overall but the financial projections are completely off the wall.
I don't agree with this. There hasn't been a huge churn in the teams which are in the LoI premier, and besides shel's demise (probably consistently replaced by drogs at least in the time since then) the teams at the top haven't changed all that much in the last decade; neither have the teams at the bottom. Cobh coming up this year and Dublin City coming up a few years back being the only examples of clubs which rose from murky depths rather than yo-yoing constantly. I don't think it makes a difference to most people which of the 'yoyos' they play.
Your Chairperson,
Gavin
Membership Advisory Board
"Ex Bardus , Vicis"
Correct, BUT, Limerick at the bottom of any league (which lets face it is where we would be) would not draw in the support.
LTID
How would it be any different than if Cardiff City won the English Premeirship and entered the CL along with, say Llanelli ? Ignoring the fact England has 4 CL slots - that would see two from Wales (Cardiff are still affiliated to the Welsh FA).
Firstly - DCFC have never actually left the IFA. We are still fully paid-up memebrs to this day (it may even be a UEFA stipulation that ou remain paid-up to your own jurisdiction, even if you play in another one). It was the Irish league we resigned from. We could arguably enter the Irish Cup next seaosn if we wanted to anyway.
Secondly, you know as much about thios scheme as everyone else. The plan appears to nbe that we would play in the Irish Cup, which no City fans are interested in TBH. regardless - I would be more worried about the technical outcome if we were to be relegated form the AIPL - would we then find ourselves pushed back into the Irish league ?
Even for you, that's week EG.....* - If Derry City were to win this competition, might they not rename it "The "Apprentice Boys Cup"?
I have to laugh at how guys come on here thinking they know more than than DCFCSteve and even try to argue some points with him. Let me tell you guys who do this you should know your place !How would it be any different than if Cardiff City won the English Premeirship and entered the CL along with, say Llanelli ? Ignoring the fact England has 4 CL slots - that would see two from Wales (Cardiff are still affiliated to the Welsh FA).
Firstly - DCFC have never actually left the IFA. We are still fully paid-up memebrs to this day (it may even be a UEFA stipulation that ou remain paid-up to your own jurisdiction, even if you play in another one). It was the Irish league we resigned from. We could arguably enter the Irish Cup next seaosn if we wanted to anyway.
Secondly, you know as much about thios scheme as everyone else. The plan appears to nbe that we would play in the Irish Cup, which no City fans are interested in TBH. regardless - I would be more worried about the technical outcome if we were to be relegated form the AIPL - would we then find ourselves pushed back into the Irish league ?
Even for you, that's week EG.....and if you read his posts correctly you would not argue with him you simply ask him his opinion on such matters.
No we don't have to acept those 'constraints' - as if the appeal of football in Ireland is so severely limited. Why have we brought in CPO's etc etc if we think we are 'constrained to crowds of c. 1,500 ?
The percentage figure may seem arbitary, but there is no reason to suppose an AIPL won't increase crowds substantially. For one simple reason. Football in Ireland - north and south - has never been properly packaged/marketed. Ever. Platinum One are a professional sports marketing company. If anyone can make an inherently decent sports product more appealing to the masses, then it's a professional and successful sports marketing company. It wouyld be absurd to just c0ck your nose and say 'sure look at them professional sporst marketing fools. we know better than them - they haven't a hope in hell of increasing gates dramatically'. I believe they do. Because they know what they're doing when it comes to marketing sport, and because no-one else on this island has ever done it before.
.
Conversely - if Glens left the IL for the AIPL, Linfield would most likely follow shortly afterwards for exactly the same reasons you mention. Partiularlty if there was talk of Cliftonville or aother IL club taking the place currently left for them at the AIPL table. And the Glens have much more to benefit from being first to jump.
Not much has changed since Genesis because Irish football - north and south - is run by people with no marketing knowledge or experience, let alone sports marketign experience. Our league has a serious image problem. Can someone please explain to me exactly how that can be changed without serious marketing to re-position it/effectively brainwash people. Did Skoda shake off their old sh!t image by just putting new wheels on and limiting engine size by 65% ? Did they hell - they pumped a tonne of money into telling the world they'd changed. And it worked. Without serious professional marketing we will always be seen as a dog's arse league. the FAI/IFA don't even see the need to do this - let alone have the ability to do it. That is the real constraint to the appeal of our league and the size of our crowds - not defeatist attitudes that assumes we're stuck with what we have now, because no-one knows how to make it any bigger.
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 22/07/2008 at 12:17 AM.
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