AIPL plans revealed

[Big Ears]

I'm in favour of an All-Ireland league, but not like this, not like this .

It should be left till the North has settled into their new league which should improve it's structure and the structure of clubs down here has improved since the FAI got involved .

The 65% wage cap is a must to keep clubs spending within their means .
Once clubs in the North and the League of Ireland are being well run we can look into an All-Ireland League with places for that new league being determined on League position alone(considering all clubs should be reasonably well run there would be no need for another evaluation process like we have gone through recently with both the FAI LOI and new IFA Premiership) .

Promotion and relegation must be there from the start aswell to keep things interesting for both the new All-Ireland League and the leagues(presumely one in the North , one in the Republic) directly below them .

[gufcfan]

Executive Summary

- Domestic football in Ireland is beset by grave financial difficulties. The prospects for the game are completely hopeless. Without an urgent and radical overhaul the game on both parts of the island will continue to fail.

I can't see how the LOI is going to improve much farther beyond its current level. As is mentioned below, clubs are haemorrhaging cash. Galway had to let many players go. Sligo are going the same way.

- Clubs are haemorrhaging money. Those clubs at the top of the game, which aspire to improving standards, cannot lift income levels to match their commitment. Most of the smaller clubs are similarly “stretched”.

For the league to improve, it needs to be done on a bigger scale. Those governing the domestic game have done it no favours. Things like television revenues have no transparency. I think that much more could be done to maximise revenue.

- Initiatives to improve matters already taken or planned by the two Associations have had little or no effect.

Anyone have any idea what initiatives they are referencing?

- The game can only support one professional league on the island combining the best run and supported clubs from the Irish League with the appropriate mix of clubs in the Republic in an all island league.

I would agree with that. I don't think that the Eircom League can exist as a fully professional league. Be it 10 or 12 teams, with the current structures, you will always have some teams living from week to week or from month to month.

- The proposed All Ireland Premier League would start in August 2009 with 10 full time professional clubs invited to participate.

10 clubs, probably a good number. As for starting in Aug 2009, I don't think that they are really setting that as their realistic target. It is probably just a tactic to show that they are serious and want movement on it soon.

- In year three two more clubs – one from each jurisdiction - would join the AIPL.

If projected revenues are on target or in that sort of ballpark, I don't see why the league couldn't sustain another 2 clubs. With proper marketing, you wouldn't have to rely on gettin the big gates from the derbies and the other big draws teams would get. Properly marketed, most league games could draw a decent crowd, in relation to the size and position of the club.

- This league would be the top of the professional game in Ireland. The remaining clubs would compete in the League of Ireland and the Irish League and could, as and from year three, qualify to play in the AIPL.

I know that I may be slightly biased, but I don't think that the idea of making the AIPL a closed shop for 2 years is a great idea.

It would mean that for 2 seasons in a row, some teams would find themselves with nothing to play for by Christmas. Not being able to reach Europe and not having the threat of relegation over them either could have adverse effects on gates, the quality of the product on offer, i.e. the football and also generally make it look a bit Mickey Mouse.

If Platinum One are trying to breed a little stability, I believe it should be done by running the clubs right and making sure that the product is as good as possible, which in turn will have a positive effect all round. I never miss a Galway United game if I can help it, but if they happened to be in the AIPL and were bottom at Christmas, I wouldn't be that bothered about games as nothing short of a miracle would salvage anything meaningful from the season.

- The new league would provide a full-time professional competition for players, spectators, sponsors and broadcasters.

With increased revenues, and hopefully... gates, investors, both public and private would be much more inclined to invest in domestic soccer. One would hope that the increase in revenues would see clubs being more financially secure.

- Most critically the new league would attract many of our better players to stay in Ireland even if the very best talent continued to go to big clubs in Britain.

If clubs were able to afford to pay people better and I suppose just as importantly, offer a better standard of competition it would encourage players to stay in Ireland. The best lads will always and should go to the Premiership in order to develope their potential fully, but there are many lads in the leagues below that who would improve the quality of the AIPL, if they were to see playing at home as a proper alternative.

- It would also mean that more of the better players who are good enough to play at the top level would go to Britain later than they do currently.

Agree

- The AIPL would be an independent entity run by a private company under licence from the FAI and IFA each of which would have a representative on its board. The independence of the AIPL would mean the autonomy of the two associations would be protected. No other aspect of the game in Ireland – North or South -would be affected by this move. All revenues generated by the AIPL would be put back into the clubs

I dont see how structurally or financially the FAI can object to it really. I mean if they dont want, fair enough, but it would be difficult for them to discredit the basic principles of the concept of an AIL. Unless they have some masterplan under their sleeves that they are waiting to reveal...

- Clubs would need to meet very strict Licensing criteria as set by UEFA through the Associations Club Licensing Departments, to qualify for the AIPL including meeting financial demands that would protect the League against unanticipated difficulties.

I'd like to know more about what exactly they mean by that

- Four European places would go the League.

I'd like to know what UEFA will have to say about that. Is there any precident for such a situation anywhere in the world?

- The AIPL clubs would remain affiliated to their respective associations and would play in their annual Cup competitions.

That would be something that would be important to me, that the FAI Cup be retained. I dont really care for the League Cup, as the wider view on it seems to be that it is Mickey Mouse.

- Players would be registered with their Association and approved to play in AIPL

Fair enough...

- AIPL clubs would be obliged to play in an AIPL underage league that would provide the natural link between the schoolboy and the professional games.

Would give the underage set-ups of the clubs a chance to play on at a better level, like their senior colleagues.

- The critical determinant of success with any professional sporting endeavour is the reaction of fans, broadcasters and sponsors. We know that the current offering is failing to generate enthusiasm with any and all of these audiences and without radical and speedy change the professional game here is doomed to fail.

The game in Ireland really needs to be snazzied up. Ever since Sky started beaming the Premiersh!t into homes and pubs all across Ireland, support for the domestic game has nosedived.

The AIPL would never compete on an equal footing with the Premiership, but I feel that a happy co-existance could happen in Ireland.

[gufcfan]

The draft report threw up an interesting couple of lines here and there. Here's one of them...

All revenues generated by the AIPL would be put back into the clubs

Apart from the 10% of the gate receipts, and the League affiliation money, all revenues generated by the AIPL would be plowed back into the league.

That is what it seems like anyhow.

I'm still very sceptical though, of how they have come to all their conclusions regarding the projections they have made for the leagues finances.

We are talking about a completely hypothetical situation here, yet they are putting down firm estimates based on a product that hasn't even gotten past the design stage yet.

[gufcfan]

All the clubs on the island will not share the same view on something as radical as what is being proposed. Those with a full-time professional staff and those with the potential to have such a set-up are completely committed to the AIPL and want to see it introduced immediately. Others – though by no means all – view it as a threat and are understandably nervous about what its introduction would herald.

Have any clubs actually come out and said that they are committed to it or at least admitted that they would like to see it happen?

I'm not sure where I heard or read about it, but apparently Galway United asked not to be included in the considerations for invitees to the AIPL.

As Platinum One have stated that a rough geographical spread with a bias towards Dublin was needed, I don't see why Galway would want to exit talks, when gaining entry into it could possibly secure the future of the club into the medium and the long term.

[jinxy lilywhite]

At this moment in time I am sceptical of the propsal. A proper time frame needs to be put in place and not "ow lets pick august 09" bull crap. Some of the clubs proposed in the deals are a joke. Limerick 37 and Galway.

The FAI & IFA will have final say on any proposal and UEFA will not sanction any club agreement before the FAI & IFA approve it first of all. Also I can't see the northern clubs going for it as only two along with Derry will be represented. What would happen to the Cliftonville's and Portadowns in their league.

I don't think the proposers have Irish football in their interests. As was said before this will have fatal consequences for the clubs that aren't involved. For a full time professional league I think clubs need to be drawing in an attendence of at least 5,000 a game and the majority of clubs on the island are nowhere near pulling that on a regular basis.

[OneRedArmy]

If it achieves nothing else it should force the FAI to get real on their "all is well in the garden" fingers-in-ears approach to the financial troubles many clubs are in.

[GavinZac]

Some of the clubs proposed in the deals are a joke. Limerick 37 and Galway.

I think the idea is that with a proper scheme for generating them funds, and probably with a generous donation from Platinum One, Limerick FC and Galway Utd would not be the jokes they are now. Its a bit unfair to class them together, also. Galway may be struggling with mediocre crowds and tight finances but they've been rooted to the foot of the table so long that their attendances really aren't that poor - they're matching St Pats at the top.

Limerick on the other hand don't have a stadium, don't have many fans, and don't exactly put much into the 'match day experience' beyond apologising afterward when you've been spit at.

Portadowns in their league.

Who? Find me Portadown in a league table or fixtures.

[jinxy lilywhite]

I think the idea is that with a proper scheme for generating them funds, and probably with a generous donation from Platinum One, Limerick FC and Galway Utd would not be the jokes they are now. Its a bit unfair to class them together, also. Galway may be struggling with mediocre crowds and tight finances but they've been rooted to the foot of the table so long that their attendances really aren't that poor - they're matching St Pats at the top.

So Galway get another hand out off the authorities. This time its from Platinum One. I'd love to know what Nick Leeson does. Does he spit, swallow or gargle?

[Macy]

I haven't read the full proposals (yet), but would not be in favour of any system that is not based on footballing critea and doesn't allow promotion or relegation. There is already a system north and south that is supposed to ensure minimum standards of infrastructure, club structure, financial security etc, so no need for an additional one so that Platinum to pick and choose.

[EalingGreen]

No doubt there are major deficiencies in the way the IL and LOI are presently run and equally, there may be good elements of this proposal whose implementation could help domestic football throughout Ireland.
But there still remains two overriding flaws which imo mean this proposal simply cannot work.

Fundamentally, there is no evidence that Ireland is capable of supporting even 10 genuinely full-time clubs on a stable, long-term basis, never mind the 16-18(?) needed to maintain competitiveness and variety etc.

Second, the finances of this proposed League are virtually completely dependent upon TV money. However, as was seen e.g. with the way the English Football League was shafted by the sudden collapse of ITV Digital's attempt to compete with Sky, to rely on a broadcaster is foolish, since they don't care a jot what they televise. Therefore, should the viewing figures and advertising revenues ever drop, they'll switch to something else without a moment's thought.

On which latter point, I foresee real difficulties. Essentially, TV companies like live football because it offers atmosphere, competitiveness, tradition and excitement to the armchair viewer. However, it is the fans in the stadium who provide the atmosphere and excitement etc. Which is why, for example, the English Prem attracts the highest TV audiences worldwide - the quality of the football itself may not be the highest, but the big stadia, capacity crowds, exciting matches etc provide the necessary atmosphere to persuade TV viewers to tune in.

Essentially, Platinum are hoping that if TV puts up the money first, and this is used to promote the League, pay players full-time and improve stadia etc, then the crowds will follow.

However, I have no confidence this will happen. For one thing, the stadia will never compete with what fans experience e.g. on their Ryanair weekend to Sunderland, or their annual holiday to the USA etc.
Second, try as they might, a 4-5,000 crowd in an 8,000 capacity stadium can never replicate the atmosphere of an Anfield or Celtic Park etc. And whilst the marketing and promotion of domestic football could undoubtedly be improved, they can never hope to compete with e.g. English football on Sky in that regard.
So that if Setanta start televising the new AIL for, say, €15 per month, you can be certain that Sky will bring out a "spoiler" showing the English Prem in Ireland at cheaper rates - and their pockets are deep enough to win any war of attrition.
Third, even though exclusively full time football would undoubtedly improve playing standards, these can never hope to draw the barstoolers away from their Satellite Dishes beaming English and Scottish games of a considerably higher standard.

Above all, I fear the fans will quickly become disillusioned with the same 4 or 5teams dominating the same 10 teams in the AIL, with the same 5 or 6 "yo yo" clubs from the IL and LOI vainly trying to get up into the AIL and stay there.
Worse still, if there is no Promotion and Relegation from the start, and only limited P&R thereafter, the "predictability factor" will be exacerbated.
And once the novelty wears off, there is a risk that fans will be put off by the significantly increased travelling, especially when games will undoubtedly be scheduled to suit the TV schedules, rather than the supporters.
Finally, whilst such ventures offer the excitement of the new, there is no guarantee that this will compensate for the loss of tradition and history which for many fans is one of the attractions of local football.
For example, if Glenavon were to draw Portadown in the Irish Cup, I'd be prepared to bet they would pull a bigger crowd than if either of them was in the AIL and playing against even the top teams like Drogheda, never mind "Franchise Picks" like Galway or Limerick37 (no offence).

In the end, domestic Irish football is facing the age old problem which faces all Leagues. Do you concentrate all your resources on those (relatively few) Elite clubs which are viable in the modern era, but consequently cast adrift "smaller" clubs who historically have contributed to the game out of proportion to their size?
Or do you try to spread your resources as widely as possible, for the overall good of the game, but thereby risk seeing the progressive clubs dragged down by the deadwood, who rely on "handouts" to go on existing?

Clearly, following England's lead, Platinum have gone for the former approach and there is nothing wrong with that in principle (imo) - esp since the latter approach, as perpetuated by the IL and LOI until recently, has seen only decline in recent decades.

But the idea that this new approach can be made to work by relying on TV money to attract the crowds is putting the cart before the horse, especially when it is hoped to draw the crowds to a League whose members are not selected on footballing criteria, but rather because they conform to some TV Advertising Exec's notion of Franchises, Regionality, potential TV audiences and geographical spread etc.

Worst of all, if my pessimism is correct, we could experience the worst of all worlds, since if the Elite League concept were to crash after a few years, potentially dragging down some of its Founder Members who had overreached themselves, then it might not be possible to return to the former concept of sharing the resources, since many small to medium clubs will also have folded during the years they were cast adrift from the AIL.

Having said all that, I'm still hopeful overall, since I'm confident the IFA and FAI will kill this particular proposal stone dead, before it ever gets going!

[Mr_Parker]

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/irishdoc.pdf

Proposal document above.

Far too many assumptions being made. doesn't look like they've researched anything at all IMO.

Assumptions and half-truths. Some of the points they make about the IL are nonsense and would appear to have been researched from reading fans comments on the ILS Forum and nothing more.

Also, I believe this is taken from the document

However, to be
successful the AIPL must be,

- established and controlled by the clubs

Is this and will this be the case? It cetainly doesn't seem to be the case to me. The monies that are being creamed of, who gets it and what will happen to it?

[SalvadorSanchez]

I'm very in favour of an AIL but not this proposal.

I agree. We need to develop an AIL, we need to offer the clubs a decent chance at increased revenue and the leagues need to be in a position to lobby both governments for sports grants to develop stadia, grass roots and junior league football. An AIL would be welcome, it would make for better away trips (generally) and may push up gates receipts etc.

We would need to see salary caps and good admin being put in place to prevent clubs going daft and ending up bankrupt etc.

Not so sure about whats being offered to the IL though, Derry would be counted as a "northern team" so in effect its just Glens and Linfield being invited to join and the promotion play-off would probably favour LOI teams at least in the first few years. Thats not going to win hearts and minds is it? I think we need at least 3 northern teams (not counting DC) and a very good second tier arrangement because that's what we're asking almost all the northern teams to sign up for and a lot of the LOI clubs as well

[passerrby]

fintan drury and the blockheads

[dcfcsteve]

Thats not strictly true as the Champions League places must be based on league positions. As this is a new league, it absolutely would need UEFA co-operation

It would need UEFA co-operation, but individual FA's set the peramneters for how they nominate their European reps. So, for example, England could chose not to nominate any Welsh FA member clubs for its Euro spots if they wanted, and UEFA would have to abide by that. So if cardiff City topped the Barclays Premioership, they could be refused a CL spot. Hence also why UEFA didn't bat an eyelid when Shels CL spot was given to City last year.

The same would go for 'ignoring' whoever finished top of the EL/IL in favour of the AIPL winners. European entrants are technically 'nominated' by associations, rather than automatic. And UEFA don't meddle in internal association's decisions unless they feel they absolutely have to.

[GavinZac]

fintan drury and the blockheads

To be honest I can't see Platinum One being worried what you or the other 99 people at a Monaghan match think. Not saying thats right or appropriate but if all you've got is insults it makes you very easy to ignore.

[dublinred]

Stupid idea , a couple of riots will evaporate any goodwill quicky , we will have morons queing up outside the grounds waiting to attack the visiting fans , a lot of teams who don't make the cut will go under quickly.

[GavinZac]

Stupid idea , a couple of riots will evaporate any goodwill quicky , we will have morons queing up outside the grounds waiting to attack the visiting fans

What in gods name are you on about? There hasn't been any trouble in the Setanta Cup and thats going for what, 4 or 5 years now?

[EalingGreen]

It would need UEFA co-operation, but individual FA's set the peramneters for how they nominate their European reps. So, for example, England could chose not to nominate any Welsh FA member clubs for its Euro spots if they wanted, and UEFA would have to abide by that. So if cardiff City topped the Barclays Premioership, they could be refused a CL spot. Hence also why UEFA didn't bat an eyelid when Shels CL spot was given to City last year.

The same would go for 'ignoring' whoever finished top of the EL/IL in favour of the AIPL winners. European entrants are technically 'nominated' by associations, rather than automatic. And UEFA don't meddle in internal association's decisions unless they feel they absolutely have to.

All very well, but one of the attractions of the AIPL is that it will offer 2 x Champions League places to the top two clubs. What happens if both clubs come from ROI (or both from NI?).
Will UEFA be happy to grant the FAI (or IFA) two CL places?
Can't see it myself.

Also, on a more parochial note, what is to be the status of Derry City in this new set-up. We are told they will play in the Irish Cup, rather than the FAI Cup. Also, the Apprentice Cup* for U-19 sides is to be organised around 4 regions, so their team will be playing mostly (exclusively?) against NI/IL teams to start with.
Does this mean DCFC will re-enter the IFA? I can see why they would not want to, but with the greatly improved security situation, their original justification for joining the FAI is now all but dissipated, whilst the proposed AIPL would give them the all-Ireland element which they require.


* - If Derry City were to win this competition, might they not rename it "The "Apprentice Boys Cup"?

[dublinred]

What in gods name are you on about? There hasn't been any trouble in the Setanta Cup and thats going for what, 4 or 5 years now?

Not all the clubs have ben involved yet , all it takes is someone to get a nosebleed and it will be front page of the Indgaapendent, who is going to pay for the policing costs under the proposals.

[holidaysong]

* - If Derry City were to win this competition, might they not rename it "The "Apprentice Boys Cup"?

That made me laugh..