I agree with pete kick out all the club who have money problems, ground issues and sustainability problems , dont let them back until they can convince us of there long term futures and let the rest of us get on with the game... bloody spoilsports
You could get the LOI to have a 'mini-season' running from March to July (maybe just playing each other twice) with the AIL then kicking off in August and the LOI reverting to a winter season (this would be necessary to facilitate promotion and relegation between the AIL and LOI). Something similar happened when we switched from winter to summer.Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
I agree with pete kick out all the club who have money problems, ground issues and sustainability problems , dont let them back until they can convince us of there long term futures and let the rest of us get on with the game... bloody spoilsports
I wish i did not know then what I dont know now
Here's the nub of the problem.
You can either accept Stu's assertion that domestic professional football is untenable or you accept that radical surgery is required to grow the game.
To make domestic football "succeed" by attracting the missing majority (aka Johnny Premiership Barstooler) you need to change the perception of the current League and to do this you need to start with a blank canvas a la Australia.
By doing this, you do away with the history of clubs and disenfranchise the hardcore element of the existing league clubs (ie most people on this forum).
Obviously not a particularly appealing vision to me or most posters on here (to anyone but Johnny Barstooler, or some of the people who have invested money in clubs) but I could see it going this way.
Its the elephant in the room that for obvious reasons none of us want to talk about.
Never understood this, I mean who was actually in a room with a few people and an elephant and they didn't actually talk about it until the elephant had sauntered off?Its the elephant in the room that for obvious reasons none of us want to talk about.
On your point though, I've been thinking the last few days that professional football in this country may have to go down the route of the GAA for it to succeed. That would mean junior clubs feeding a county or counties team that goes forward to a national tournament. That would mean disbanding all current football clubs in their current form (or clubs dropping back to the junior leagues) and players being handpicked to represent Cork County, 2 or 3 Dublin City teams (City/County/Utd/whatever), Galway/Sligo (merger), Limerick/Waterford (merger), rest of Leinster, rest of Munster, Derry and rest of Connaught. Obviously it would mean the death of football, as we know it, on this island, but I could see how the higher ups could see it as a potential money spinner (given the right marketing), and I think it would get the backing of the junior clubs that have wanted to do away with the LoI for quite some time.
I cannot see why they can't just bring the idea of merging the 2 premier divisions together from 2009 with whatever clubs are in it and the 2 first divisions. I echo the sentiments of others here a 10 team league with no relegation for the first while will become boring, having to play the same team 4 times in a league season is crap imo. Their proposal would create an even bigger gap between the top division and smaller clubs thus killing of up to 15 clubs in our own league and more than 20 in the northern league. If the new product is going to be 'so attractive' that the crowds will flock, who will want to watch bray vs wexford playing for nothing really bar the hardcore. It could work but a lot more thought needs to put in to accomadate as many clubs as possible on the gravy train, instead of creating hotspots of interest across the country, the problem with the national league is that people in counties without teams have no affintity for it, which is where the GAA works so well playing on the county pride etc etc.
The complete opopsite of my assertion in fact. If you want to discuss things, kindly avoid making up counter-arguments.
No they won't. Have you not read the proposals? Everything'd be rosy.
I interpreted this statement as meaning professional football in untenable.
Am I mistaken?
The only reason there is money men behind pats, Drogs and Cork is the lure of franchise football, sure, there are alot of problems with this proposal but the basics are along the lines of whats needed if professional football on this island is to survive.
Franchise sounds like a dirty word to supporters but its what business men want to hear. Any AIL needs investors and this is the way to get them.
we looked from Montrose to Swords, from swords to Montrose and from Montrose to Swords again but already it was impossible to spot UCDs right winger
The Australian model is interesting because there are a lot of paralells but some of the old NSL Clubs continued into the new A league, so while there were a lot of changes and radical changes it wasn't an entirely blank canvas.Here's the nub of the problem.
You can either accept Stu's assertion that domestic professional football is untenable or you accept that radical surgery is required to grow the game.
To make domestic football "succeed" by attracting the missing majority (aka Johnny Premiership Barstooler) you need to change the perception of the current League and to do this you need to start with a blank canvas a la Australia.
By doing this, you do away with the history of clubs and disenfranchise the hardcore element of the existing league clubs (ie most people on this forum).
Obviously not a particularly appealing vision to me or most posters on here (to anyone but Johnny Barstooler, or some of the people who have invested money in clubs) but I could see it going this way.
Its the elephant in the room that for obvious reasons none of us want to talk about.
The most interesting thing is the attendances, without looking it up and working from memory the new "franchise" clubs have been in general way more succesfull at getting new supporters than the old NSL sides who have joined the A league, in fact Perth Glory the club with the longest history of the 3 who did move from NSL to A League have actually seen their attendances go down
Like it or not franchise football is on its way. It could be argued it has already arrived via Fingal & Limerick. Cork City was essentially a franchise when it was created.
I believe the FAI has no interest in supporting 22 senior clubs but just needs a nice way (licencing) to bring this about. Less clubs means more money for each club. No use investing millions in facilities for clubs with crowds in the hundreds.
While I feel for some of the volunteers and fans helping out at some struggling first division clubs, some of these clubs should really consider packing it in at this stage and go back to the regional leagues. Maybe a bye into the first round of the FAI Cup for 5 years would soften the blow.
Will be interesting to see how this thing pans out, I am bit surprised that 7 clubs signed a letter to the minister at this early stage.
btw I think 10 team leagues stink, Id rather see a 16 team league whether its an AIL league or not.
bhs
sad but true, also i assume cork bohs,derry, drogs, and pats signed the letter but who else believes they are super potential
I wish i did not know then what I dont know now
Fantastic post mate.
For anyone that is lauding the new league in this thread, reference some of the points above first.
I'm sure we'll all agree that Pineapple can speak for himself but I think he's saying that any plan to introduce a fully professional league has to start by looking at where the league is now and then setting out a set of realistic steps that can take us to where we want to go.
I interpreted this statement as meaning professional football in untenable.But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints. That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.
Am I mistaken?
If you look at this snippet from the proposals:
it reads like a bad FF election manifesto, full of promises which cannot possibly be met. It simply states that this group has predicted an increase of 150% where as others have only predicted 50%. Therefore this group will bring about an increase of 150% and the club with an annual gate of 270,000 can happily hand over 100,000 of it at the start of the season on the presumption that the increasing gates will make it worthwhile.We have said that we expect gate receipts to increase by 150% in the first year of the AIPL. Take the earlier example (4.2.3) of the club that earned €272,000 in gross gate receipts from its home league fixtures in 2007. Were it to continue in the current dispensation and manage a highly unlikely 50% increase in that figure it would realise gross receipts of €408,000. However, we are projecting growth of 150% to gross receipts of €680,000 in year one of the AIPL. Net of the fees payable to its league that clubs income would stand at €612,000 still far ahead of what it could ever hope to realise from a season in the Eircom League. The AIPL represents a much stronger proposition than the status quo which will continue to under deliver.
It's another example of the 'spend money now in the hope of money later' plan that has worked against a lot of clubs in the past.
You mentioned FF bull**** at the end of your post, refer to the highlighted section.
What on earth does that mean? Its very easy to hurl from the ditch.
What I meant when I said 'steps that can take us to where we want to go' I meant a plan to introduce a fully professional league, which I mentioned earlier in the same sentence. I thought that was reasonably clear but sorry if it wasn't.
It's too early to tell with the A league. If after 10 or 12 years they're still getting crowds higher than the clubs with history, maybe it will be worth thinking about, even with the obvious advantage they had of the Aussie's tradition of going to watch live sport that we don't have.
Remember when the NASL used to get massive crowds? In the mid to late 90's the Manchester Areana was packed for Ice Hockey and Basketball, getting over 17,000 a game. There was talk about them taking over from football. Now they're both playing in venue's with a capacity of under a 1000, under different names as the franchises effectively went bust.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Is it true that the operators of the current football franchise in Cork are going to pull out if the AIPL doesn't go ahead , who would cover the wages if this happened?
That's a fair point but in its first 3 years attendances have gone From 10,955 to 12,927 to 14,610. The last grand final of the old NSL attracted 9,000
I disagree that we don't have a tradition of going to live sport, the GAA manages to get people to it's games, Munster & Leinster Rugby have proved that if the product is right and properly marketed people will come.
Populationwise there is always going to be issues, 5m is not a lot of people to support 4 professional sports (the GAA is professional in all but name), crowds of 5,000-10,000 are acheivable for clubs with big catchement areas like Cork & the Dublin clubs, Sligo has a population of under 20,000 how realistic is it to expect 25% of that population to turn up at the showgrounds on a Friday night?
Is it true that Fintan Drury is also going to hold his breath and stamp his feet until he's allowed have his league? And that several of the "elite" clubs have vowed that if it doesn't go ahead they'll never speak to us ever ever ever again?
"Even if the wind stops to blow
Even if the sea ceases to flow
Even if the sun ceases to rise
The name of Sligo Rovers will shine and shine forever like the morning star glittering in the sky."
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