AIPL plans revealed

[Buller]

Really....?

2007 ESTIMATED POPULATIONS

Croatia - 4.49m
Scotland - 5.12m
Denmark - 5.4m
Ireland - 5.8m (island)

Yeah....
England has a population 50m, Germany 80m, Spain 45m, Italy 60m.

The countries you have listed there all have 12 team leagues, akin to their populations... not 20.
Read my response again. (I think you misread it...)

[jinxy lilywhite]

I think this discussion has swayed somewhat to a population contest.
In an other aspest I don't believe that P1 would be ready in time to lauch this AIPL in August 09. The FAI and especially the IFA will not stand for this plan in it's current format(the figures included in the proposal are ludicrous and I think the expenses they believe they will incur are vastly under estimated) and more importantly they would have the backing of UEFA who probably will have the final say on this matter.
If P1 has got something out of this is that the whole football community on the island is talking about this and this is quite a divisive issue whilst still in the public domain.
Speaking as somebody who supports a team on the outside of the cosy cartel of the 12 teams selected, I would never support a team in the AIL or subscribe, go to a game unless Dundalk where in it. It could well be the sentiment of other supporters whose teams are outside but I can only speak for me.
I think one thing has to be found out by the FAI and the IFA are what contingency plans for P1 and what will happen if this whole thing goes pear shaped in the first couple of years?

[GavinZac]

I think this discussion has swayed somewhat to a population contest.

All in response to the laughable suggestion that because England, Germany and Italy have larger-than-normal premier divisions, so should we.

[backstothewall]

Teams in a large population centre (like Galway or Limerick) might have current problems, but at least they have the potential to one day pull in a crowd over 10,000. But given the populations of towns like Sligo, Dundalk, and especially Ballybofey, we can be sure that such a crowd will NEVER show up there. Whilst it might seem unfair to teams achieving fine results on the field to cherry pick sides, it is a financial reality that if this country is to have a league that isn't to continue to fester, and is to have some degree of success in Europe, that cherry picking must happen. The alternative is to carry on as we are, watch more sides go to the wall and stand by as apartments and a TESCO are built on top of their grounds, before realising what has to happen and getting a worse deal in 10 years.

It has to make sense to look at successful formats in other European nations of similar populations.

Serbia - 7,780,000 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Bulgaria - 7,621,337 - 16 teams x 2 meetings per season
Switzerland - 7,301,994 - 10 teams
Ireland - 5,962,000 - ????????
Slovakia - 5,422,366 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Denmark - 5,368,854 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Finland - 5,302,545 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Georgia - 4,960,951 - 12 teams
Norway - 4,743,193 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Croatia - 4,490,751 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season

LOI has a lower co-efficient than all these league, bar Georgia, which is dominated by one team, and I would suspect Dinamo Tiblisi (who have won 13of the 19 championships played since independence) would expect to progress against any LOI side. As putting all Ireland's eggs in a single Dublin side basket isn't practical, I would conclude the only way to improve the standard is a proposal at least similar to the P1 proposal.

The Georgian league also used to have 16 teams, but reduced this to 14. Croatia also experimented with 16 teams in the 90's, but reverted to 12 after a single season. Slovakia meanwhile used to have 10, but recently expanded this to 12.

To me this suggests 10 is too few, and leads to boredom from playing the same other nine side’s week after week. 16 however leads to boredom from playing poor quality sides every other week, and slices the cake to many ways in a country of our size.

This leaves a number between 12-14. Given our situation of having a concentration of teams around Dublin, the most comparable model to my eyes in the list above is Norway, which has 6 teams in or around Oslo. The Norwegian league has also recently achieved the kind of improvement we seek for Ireland. Perhaps one day we can see a Linfield or Cork City playing in the group stages of the Champions League as Rosenberg have done.

Following the Norwegian model would also have the benefits of making a straight forward home and away season possible, without confusing potential new customers to Irish football with games played on neutral venues as part or the league, or splitting the league into championship and relegation groups.

I would include the 10 teams suggested by P1 (Derry City, Cork City, Bohemians, Drogheda Utd, Limerick 37, Glentoran, Linfield, Galway Utd, St Patrick's Athletic and Shamrock Rovers). I would also include...

- Longford Town, as the 10 leave the midlands completely without representation
- Portadown, as there is a high population in the Portadown-Lurgan area with a strong football tradition
- Belfast/Donegal Celtic if there is any truth in the story about a new stadium in west Belfast backed by Peter Curiston
- the winners of a play-off competition open to all Irish League and LOI teams not already chosen.

I believe such a league would give football a real bounce when it started, and could hold interest in the longer term. I would play it from March - August so as not to compete directly with the EPL Premier League, and to give Ireland’s sides the advantage of being at their sharpest at the early stages of the European competitions.

[Rovers Maniac]

Teams in a large population centre (like Galway or Limerick) might have current problems, but at least they have the potential to one day pull in a crowd over 10,000. But given the populations of towns like Sligo, Dundalk, and especially Ballybofey, we can be sure that such a crowd will NEVER show up there. Whilst it might seem unfair to teams achieving fine results on the field to cherry pick sides, it is a financial reality that if this country is to have a league that isn't to continue to fester, and is to have some degree of success in Europe, that cherry picking must happen. The alternative is to carry on as we are, watch more sides go to the wall and stand by as apartments and a TESCO are built on top of their grounds, before realising what has to happen and getting a worse deal in 10 years.

It has to make sense to look at successful formats in other European nations of similar populations.

Serbia - 7,780,000 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Bulgaria - 7,621,337 - 16 teams x 2 meetings per season
Switzerland - 7,301,994 - 10 teams
Ireland - 5,962,000 - ????????
Slovakia - 5,422,366 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Denmark - 5,368,854 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Finland - 5,302,545 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Georgia - 4,960,951 - 12 teams
Norway - 4,743,193 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Croatia - 4,490,751 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season

LOI has a lower co-efficient than all these league, bar Georgia, which is dominated by one team, and I would suspect Dinamo Tiblisi (who have won 13of the 19 championships played since independence) would expect to progress against any LOI side. As putting all Ireland's eggs in a single Dublin side basket isn't practical, I would conclude the only way to improve the standard is a proposal at least similar to the P1 proposal.

The Georgian league also used to have 16 teams, but reduced this to 14. Croatia also experimented with 16 teams in the 90's, but reverted to 12 after a single season. Slovakia meanwhile used to have 10, but recently expanded this to 12.

To me this suggests 10 is too few, and leads to boredom from playing the same other nine side’s week after week. 16 however leads to boredom from playing poor quality sides every other week, and slices the cake to many ways in a country of our size.

This leaves a number between 12-14. Given our situation of having a concentration of teams around Dublin, the most comparable model to my eyes in the list above is Norway, which has 6 teams in or around Oslo. The Norwegian league has also recently achieved the kind of improvement we seek for Ireland. Perhaps one day we can see a Linfield or Cork City playing in the group stages of the Champions League as Rosenberg have done.

Following the Norwegian model would also have the benefits of making a straight forward home and away season possible, without confusing potential new customers to Irish football with games played on neutral venues as part or the league, or splitting the league into championship and relegation groups.

I would include the 10 teams suggested by P1 (Derry City, Cork City, Bohemians, Drogheda Utd, Limerick 37, Glentoran, Linfield, Galway Utd, St Patrick's Athletic and Shamrock Rovers). I would also include...

- Longford Town, as the 10 leave the midlands completely without representation
- Portadown, as there is a high population in the Portadown-Lurgan area with a strong football tradition
- Belfast/Donegal Celtic if there is any truth in the story about a new stadium in west Belfast backed by Peter Curiston
- the winners of a play-off competition open to all Irish League and LOI teams not already chosen.

I believe such a league would give football a real bounce when it started, and could hold interest in the longer term. I would play it from March - August so as not to compete directly with the EPL Premier League, and to give Ireland’s sides the advantage of being at their sharpest at the early stages of the European competitions.

You would want to check your facts in regards to Sligo pulling 10,000 + this has been done in past on quite a few occasions in the past. Dundalk i would say the same but i am not sure. I have to laugh at guys on here who come on stating what the league needs to do without checking facts and in the process of displaying their ignorance want to shut down two of the best and longest establised provincial clubs on the Island (not to mention one that is full time professional and this would be one of main aims of the new league to have all clubs full time).
In the last year we have seen what a fiasco the FAI made promoting Galway ahead of Dundalk, a club which came up because it was seen as the way forward for all clubs but is now that is relying on it's directors just to see out the season before they go back semi professional next year.

[backstothewall]

You would want to check your facts in regards to Sligo pulling 10,000 + this has been done in past on quite a few occasions in the past. Dundalk i would say the same but i am not sure. I have to laugh at guys on here who come on stating what the league needs to do without checking facts and in the process of displaying their ignorance want to shut down two of the best and longest establised provincial clubs on the Island (not to mention one that is full time professional and this would be one of main aims of the new league to have all clubs full time).
In the last year we have seen what a fiasco the FAI made promoting Galway ahead of Dundalk, a club which came up because it was seen as the way forward for all clubs but is now that is relying on it's directors just to see out the season before they go back semi professional next year.

Really?? Hate to rain on your parade (I'm actually quite enjoying it), but the capacity of the showgrounds is 9000 according to worldstadiums.com. If you believe wikipedia it is only 5500.

Now... What was that you were saying about research??

btw, i never mentioned closing down any club. they will probably have to adjust their setup, but the number of clubs going to the wall already is evidence if any were needed that there are a lot of professional clubs in Ireland who simply can't afford it

[Rovers Maniac]

Really?? Hate to rain on your parade (I'm actually quite enjoying it), but the capacity of the showgrounds is 9000 according to worldstadiums.com. If you believe wikipedia it is only 5500.

Now... What was that you were saying about research??

btw, i never mentioned closing down any club. they will probably have to adjust their setup, but the number of clubs going to the wall already is evidence if any were needed that there are a lot of professional clubs in Ireland who simply can't afford it

God have you noticed anything missing from the ground in the least two years ? Like an end? You have come on here talking complete rubbish about something you think you have an idea about but clearly you have not got a clue. Over 13,000 (Offical figure i think was 13,082) for a cup semi final v Cobh in 1983 something similar v Shams in 1977 in the 90's there was just under 10,000 at a game v FC Brugge. There are 3 matches that spring to mind so what you have said as is complete rubbish that has not being researched just complete tosh your proposal would mean that the league would lose a professional to promote a club that have never being professional because of potential (Don't people like you ask why that club have never being professional in the past?).

[backstothewall]

I am ulikely to have missed anything missing from the ground as I have never been there. Have you noticed anything missing from Inver Park or Suffolk Road recently??

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=960054

According to this arcived thread the record is 9000 for a game against Shamrock Rovers in the 1976/77 season. I mean there are no shortage of people who claim a million people were on O'Connell St after Italia 90, or at Bobby Sands funeral, but there is always a large element of exaduration.

Have you got any source for these wonderful attendences you quote??

It really doesn't matter anyway, the average attendance at Sligo is under 1500. For all the abuse Galway United get they pull in more people every week, and a team from a provincial capital city of over 70,000 people clearly has a better chance of supporting a club than a small town of 20,000.

[Rovers Maniac]

I am ulikely to have missed anything missing from the ground as I have never been there. Have you noticed anything missing from Inver Park or Suffolk Road recently??

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=960054

According to this arcived thread the record is 9000 for a game against Shamrock Rovers in the 1976/77 season. I mean there are no shortage of people who claim a million people were on O'Connell St after Italia 90, or at Bobby Sands funeral, but there is always a large element of exaduration.

Have you got any source for these wonderful attendences you quote??

It really doesn't matter anyway, the average attendance at Sligo is under 1500. For all the abuse Galway United get they pull in more people every week, and a team from a provincial capital city of over 70,000 people clearly has a better chance of supporting a club than a small town of 20,000.

This is quite funny and amusing you are lifting information from random internet posters on here . You seem to have no idea about football i am sure you would have Kilkenny in there if they still had a team in the league, but only for their potential because of their population ignoring all other norms and values for the people of that area. Guys like you scare me to be honest.

[Rovers Maniac]

This is quite funny and amusing you are lifting information from random internet posters on here . You seem to have no idea about football i am sure you would have Kilkenny in there if they still had a team in the league, but only for their potential because of their population ignoring all other norms and values for the people of that area. Guys like you scare me to be honest.

Look at the post further down the page from the poster named Believer he gives a figure like mine. It shows the health and safety was never really a concern back then.

[eelmonster]

But given the populations of towns like Sligo, Dundalk, and especially Ballybofey, we can be sure that such a crowd will NEVER show up there.

Record attendance at Oriel is 21000 (1979 European Cup 2nd Round v Celtic), and we consistently got crowds in the region of 20000 for European matches at Oriel and 20000+ when played at Dalymount. I'm not sure what the record attendance for a domestic fixture is, but I'd be willing to bet it is is in excess of 10000 -- I'll have a look at Jim Murphy's History of Dundalk FC and let you know.

[SwanVsDalton]

Attendance figures from the 70's and 80's are hardly relevant, every club experienced considerably better crowds in those decades than they do now due to no EPL, more interest in local football, less obviously awful facilities etc.

It's also foolhardy to think that any club can realistically regain those figures. The best we can hope for, at the moment, is to increase attendances to around 3-5,000 and keep them there. And at the moment some clubs are in a better position to do that than others. Cherry picking is the obvious, if cruel, result.

[sullanefc]

Norway - 4,743,193 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season

Following the Norwegian model would also have the benefits of making a straight forward home and away season possible, without confusing potential new customers to Irish football with games played on neutral venues as part or the league, or splitting the league into championship and relegation groups.

You have made a lot of good points, however, having a 14 team league like Norway means a 26 game season. This is simply not enough games (gate receipts) to support clubs.

[Rovers Maniac]

From a few weeks ago

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-13898387.html

[Terry]

You have made a lot of good points, however, having a 14 team league like Norway means a 26 game season. This is simply not enough games (gate receipts) to support clubs.

Norway only do the 26 games because of the poor winters they have over a long period of time, here, IF the FAI went for 14 teams, I would say they would have a 39 game season!

[paulie_walnuts]

All in response to the laughable suggestion that because England, Germany and Italy have larger-than-normal premier divisions, so should we.

You mean you haven't realised that everything thats done in England should be copied here because the 'Premiership' is the greatest thing ever!

[paulie_walnuts]

You would want to check your facts in regards to Sligo pulling 10,000 + this has been done in past on quite a few occasions in the past. Dundalk i would say the same but i am not sure. I have to laugh at guys on here who come on stating what the league needs to do without checking facts and in the process of displaying their ignorance want to shut down two of the best and longest establised provincial clubs on the Island (not to mention one that is full time professional and this would be one of main aims of the new league to have all clubs full time).
In the last year we have seen what a fiasco the FAI made promoting Galway ahead of Dundalk, a club which came up because it was seen as the way forward for all clubs but is now that is relying on it's directors just to see out the season before they go back semi professional next year.

Dundalks record crowd is in and around 19000. That was in the 70s. I don't know the population of the town back then but it can't have been much more. Now it is between 30 and 35000. Those huge crowds of the 60s and 70s are never going to be back again. We will struggle to get average gates of over 4 or 5000 anywhere, no matter that gimmicks are pulled, lets be realistic, thanks to the hold English football has on us here, things will not change.

[SMorgan]

From a few weeks ago

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-13898387.html

Good to see the IFA clearly setting out their position out.

My concern relates to the Platium One, Fintan Drury and Jim Roddy. I think when the FAI says it is supportive of the idea of an All-Ireland league, I don't think they are saying that they are supportive of handing control over to a self-appointed body with no curent involvement in the league. I'd like to see the FAI and the IFA continue to explore that idea with no reference or input from P1. P1 don't give a toss about domestic football in this country.

[GavinZac]

a self-appointed body with no curent involvement in the league ... P1 don't give a toss about domestic football in this country.

18 months ago you could have been talking about the FAI...

[paulie_walnuts]

Teams should be there on merit, not on where they are from.