Today/Tonight Euro Latest

[GavinZac]

Sligo Rovers could not beat this side so no bother trying lad !

er, what?

[bigmac]

talking about what RonnieB and mark12345 are commenting on we have to ask the question what is success for LOI in europe?

Success is improving and maintaining our showing in Europe each year. While it can be annoying and obsessive, the co-efficient is the only realistic measure of how one country does versus another. For me, when we talk about success we should be looking at about 5 year intervals. Where was the league 10 years ago? Where was it 5 years ago, and where is it now.
In 2000 Ireland was ranked 41st of the European leagues. This year we were ranked 35th. To me that's an improvement. If we break it further down, then success is climbing the ladder with consistent results every year, not one fantastic year and then 3 terrible years. For the last 4 years we have consistently added 1 point or more to the coefficient. In the previous 5 years, we had 1 year where 1 point or more was added - this is progress and success.
Obviously this isn't enough for Mark12345 and his friends, but we are never going to compete directly with other bigger leagues in Europe we don't have the money or interest in this country. But we're not hte only country in that position. I would imagine that if there is a foot.fr equivalent, there is probably a Marc12345 on there complaining about the standard of Ligue 1 and saying that it's rubbish and they won't do very well in Europe. It's all a matter of perspective and if you judge everything by the top 2/3 leagues then obviously all the rest are going to come up short. The important thing for the LOI is to keep pushing to improve its structures, its quality and its results against other leagues. Ill thought out rants and WUMs of Mark's ilk aren't going to do anything for the league or convince football fans to start following one money making company in England over another one.

[sullanefc]

Disappointing result. Should have been about 4/5 goals for City. We had all the ball in the first half, creating only 2-3 chances, in the second we absolutely battered them. They are very dangerous team on the counter attack that should not be taken lightly.

Having said that, from what I saw in the second half last night, we have a very good chance of beating them over there. It will be difficult but doable.

[derm]

Disappointing result. Should have been about 4/5 goals for City. We had all the ball in the first half, creating only 2-3 chances, in the second we absolutely battered them. They are very dangerous team on the counter attack that should not be taken lightly.

Having said that, from what I saw in the second half last night, we have a very good chance of beating them over there. It will be difficult but doable.

Agree with this. Unless they are a completely different team at home our biggest problem will be our own defence. I'm gutted we didn't win this, hit the woodwork three times and had one good peno shout when Healy was brought down (plus a couple of dodgy peno claims ). Having said that though we really missed O'Flynn last night

[ndrog]

What the likes of Mark12345 fails miserably to see is the total euphoria of seeing your hometown team win a champions leauge game .Heraing that music as the players came out onto the pitch was amazing for me and my fellow " supporters " .Lookin around and seeing family members and friends everywere in the stands is something these clueless people will never understand .Its called pride in were your from and who you are .Now run along the english want your money you foolish boy .

[Juanace]

In a nutshell then:

What number of coef points do we need to get in order to be seeded in UEFA Cup and Champions League next year - or where in the standings do we need to be?

What do we have to achieve to start in the second round of these competitons?

Thanks!

[pineapple stu]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/...ccess2009.html

[bigmac]

Firstly, it is the 2007 rankings that decided our European spots for this year, not last year's rankings - obviously this is so that leagues will know before they begin how many European spots are on offer (with the exception of fair play). Therefore the 2008 ranking of 35th is what will dictate our European qualifiers at the end of this season for the 2009/2010 season.

The Champions will therefore go into QR1 of the CL and by my calculations will probably not be seeded. This of course will depend on the coefficient at the end of this year, but I think that our representatives will end up the top unseeded team. Leaving aside club coefficients - which can of course throw things off, we would need to be in 32nd position to have our champions seeded.
With the new format Uefa Cup, the Cup winners will go into QR2 and the 2nd and 3rd placed teams will go into QR1. By my calculations, both teams in QR1 will be seeded, and the cup winners may just about be seeded - it depends on the regional split and fair play winners I think.

[OneRedArmy]

Just a few weeks ago I was beaten from pillar to post on this site for daring to suggest that Eircom League standards weren't up to much. I cited the evidence I'd seen on MNS, and using my life's experience (horribly misguided as it is) of watching and playing the game, and identifying good football from bad - I came to the above conclusion.

I ventured that the EL sides wouldn't do much in Europe either (the dialogue went as far as asking how far we are from an Irish side making the Champions League group stage) but again a torrent of abuse came flyin' back.

Well I stand corrected lads, the record so far makes great reading - Bohs out to a side from mighty Latvia, Drogheda up against it for the return leg to the European hot bed of Estonia and Cork as good as gone following a tussle with European 'giants' Haka.

Pats are in good shape, and fair play to them - but overall this 'know nothing' will be predicting another miserable year for a league which is more like a Reality TV show. It has no structure, no finances, no supporters and even less prospects for success. But don't dare mention that to anyone - you might just offend its die hard followers, who, if they
just stopped for a minute to think, would realise that they're the biggest obstacles of all.

Apart from you being right all the time, whats your point?

[HarpoJoyce]

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uef...id=727066.html

This is the Access List for the UEFA CUP and is compiled before the tournament. The LoI (IRL) finished three clubs below the cut-off for seeding. It is hoped by naturally breaking our seeding IRL improves.

Every country has an average value, if a club does well in Europe it may have value above the Nat. Average (e.g man utd., dynamo kiev and from Iceland FH Hafnarfyjordur) those clubs earn and keep a higher value. Clubs with more modest results in Europe get the value of the National Average. That's why so many clubs share the same value. St. Pat's and Cork City included.

Explanation of which three clubs finished ahead:
Two Moldovan (MDA) and one Lith. (LTU) FC Suduva. The other LTU Ventspils had finished runners-up in their domestic cup and got the seeding from UEFA. FH (ISL) seeding had split the two LTU. Along with these targets Latvia (LVA) are close enough to be in our sights.
Because, at the moment, IRL is in Nth. Europe are ranking needs to move above LVA and LTU for the LoI clubs to edge a seeding. It depends on the Nth. Europe boundary not changing either.

There may be a rumour spread by Bert Kassels that Derry City have a very healthy individual value, above the LoI's average.

(That Access List has two FIN and FH ranked in a lower position than their value. I am presuming a clerical error and the value is correct, they should be placed higher in the table for clarity).

[higgins]

Bigmac.
I would be surprised if we are not seeded in the Champions League next season. We're currently 32nd in the list so even though we are entered in the rounds as 35th we will be 32nd in terms of the coefficient.

We could jump Latvia and lithuania too this year which would certainly make us seeds in Champions league and UEFA.

[OneRedArmy]

[url]There may be a rumour spread by Bert Kassels that Derry City have a very healthy individual value, above the LoI's average.

Tell me more (I assume you are referring to the club coefficient a club gets when they get into the first round proper of a tournament?)

[cheifo]

Just a few weeks ago I was beaten from pillar to post on this site for daring to suggest that Eircom League standards weren't up to much. I cited the evidence I'd seen on MNS, and using my life's experience (horribly misguided as it is) of watching and playing the game, and identifying good football from bad - I came to the above conclusion.

I ventured that the EL sides wouldn't do much in Europe either (the dialogue went as far as asking how far we are from an Irish side making the Champions League group stage) but again a torrent of abuse came flyin' back.

Well I stand corrected lads, the record so far makes great reading - Bohs out to a side from mighty Latvia, Drogheda up against it for the return leg to the European hot bed of Estonia and Cork as good as gone following a tussle with European 'giants' Haka.



Pats are in good shape, and fair play to them - but overall this 'know nothing' will be predicting another miserable year for a league which is more like a Reality TV show. It has no structure, no finances, no supporters and even less prospects for success. But don't dare mention that to anyone - you might just offend its die hard followers, who, if they
just stopped for a minute to think, would realise that they're the biggest obstacles of all.

You are missing the simple point Mark.If you don,t support football in your Country then you can't seriously call yourself a football supporter,can you?
If you feel sitting at home or in the Pub listening to Andy and Richard qualifies you as one then fair enough but if you are really honest with yourself, you will understand how EL supporters find that view comical.
It is YOUR Countries League, if people like you would follow it then the gates/standard would get nearer to where we are aiming at.

[higgins]

Yes the draw with PSG would get you a point

[pineapple stu]

Tell me more (I assume you are referring to the club coefficient a club gets when they get into the first round proper of a tournament?)

Results outside the qualifying rounds (i.e. the draw with PSG) are added onto your country coefficient, so Derry would be seeded higher than, say, UCD. It's to separate the likes of Man Utd from Millwall, but isn't much in evidence down our level because we mostly don't get results outside qualifying. It's very handy though; would jump youz up three or four places I'd say.

[OneRedArmy]

Results outside the qualifying rounds (i.e. the draw with PSG) are added onto your country coefficient, so Derry would be seeded higher than, say, UCD. It's to separate the likes of Man Utd from Millwall, but isn't much in evidence down our level because we mostly don't get results outside qualifying. It's very handy though; would jump youz up three or four places I'd say.

Thanks Stu, I'm fully up to speed on club coefficients.

I was referring to the "Bert Kassies rumour" point.

[pineapple stu]

Ah, I see.

That's just Harpo's way of talking.

[bigmac]

Bigmac.
I would be surprised if we are not seeded in the Champions League next season. We're currently 32nd in the list so even though we are entered in the rounds as 35th we will be 32nd in terms of the coefficient.

Could be - I definitely hope so. Originally I looked at the draws around us and came up with this prediction. I was looking at 33rd as minimum expected, wiht 32nd possible. Obviously some of that has changed due to first leg results - I didn't expect Llanelli to beat Ventspils or Glentoran to get a draw against Metalurgs. Equally I didn't expect both Hungarian teams to be held to a draw - these results have jumped us ahead of Hungary whom I pinpointed as the country we could get ahead of for 32nd place. We're still a win away from Latvia so we have to hope that Llanelli and Glentoran can help us out again there.

Given the easy Lithuanian draw (and a great performance to beat Stavanger), I don't see us overtaking them this year - they should realistically pick up at least another 2 wins in the 2nd legs which would give them another .666 points with minimum 4 games left in the next round.

[HarpoJoyce]

Tell me more (I assume you are referring to the club coefficient a club gets when they get into the first round proper of a tournament?)

Yes the draw with PSG would get you a point

Apologies higgins is this a part-reply to ORA. There PSG score is part of their individual co-efficient alright.


ORA, it's not as healthy as I though but Shels and Derry are above the IRL average. It's like I mentioned in my previous post above. FH Hafnarfyjordur (ISL) got a seeding in the UEFA Cup 'cos of their own efforts.

There is the Nat. Average value which is the majority of clubs and it's a value allocated because most clubs maybe qualify three, two times or less in five years and don't get an opportunity to collect alot of points. Shelbourne FC still and I will show Derry City FC have an individual co-efficients above the national average.

Also I presume, this comes from all match points, 1st round or qualifiers.

UEFA access list from 2007 - the year Derry were last in Europe. UEFA will publish clubs value when they qualify for Europe, (harder to get their figure for when a team is not in Europe that year.)
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...id=551776.html
"IRL1 q1 Derry City FC* 3.145"
"* Shelbourne FC won the title but did not apply to enter the UEFA Champions League after being relegated for financial reasons. Derry are expected to inherit their place in the competition as Irish runners-up. "

(UEFA gave us our own asterisk. I am not doing this to embarass anyone, honest) Please note the low IRL1 position but the higher value beside Derry City, I think it's to easier compare the quality of the individual club. Please note NK Zagreb and FC Kobenhavn aswel. Anyway 3.145 is above the UEFA seeds this year.

But that was one year ago, what shape are Derry in this year?
The foot.ie House Guest Bert Kassels (scroll down to pos. 205)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/...trank2008.html
" 205 Derry City Irl 0.1100 0.4400 0.6050 1.9350 0.3300 3.420
Shelbourne Irl 0.1100 1.4400 0.6050 0.9350 0.3300 3.420 "

"Ireland 0.1100 0.4400 0.6050 0.9350 0.3300 2.420 "

Derry City and Shelbourne will shed the first 0.1100. Hopefully team Ireland will make some progress too. But not all the way up to 3.320, surely?
Also, Shels and Derry have scored every year so I presume you will be due some points for this year also.

I found the UEFA page by searching "Access List 2007" cos I knew that was when Derry were last in Europe. Then looked at pub. dates til summer2007 looked promising.

The Bert Kassels list is a Team Ranking 2008 list but all his numbers come originaly from UEFA, my European protectors of football.

If you need anything clarified let me know.

If you need anything else, ask bigmac. He has a simpler understanding of the co-efficient.

[thischarmingman]

But don't dare mention that to anyone - you might just offend its die hard followers, who, if they
just stopped for a minute to think, would realise that they're the biggest obstacles of all.

What utter, utter garbage. Possibly the most idiotic argument I've ever heard on this forum.