Reforming the Justice System

[GavinZac]

So if we execute one rapist there's never gonna be another rape ever again?

No, be we can be damn sure he won't do it again; and if we went my route, seeing the agonised expression on his detached head sitting atop a pitchfork where the father mathew statue used to be might put off one more, and that'd be worth it.

[Wangball]

No, be we can be damn sure he won't do it again; and if we went my route, seeing the agonised expression on his detached head sitting atop a pitchfork where the father mathew statue used to be might put off one more, and that'd be worth it.

Put him in prison and he's not gonna get to do it again anyhow

I don't think sticking heads on pikes in the middle of town would put them off either, just make them try harder not to be caught...the re-introduction of the death penalty would neither be a short term or a long term solution, just a knee jerk reaction to appease the kind of people who should never have a say on these kind of things anyhow

[jebus]

In my opinion no, but at the same time I don't think killing people is the right way to go about addressing the issue

And that's why you'll never be a mod!!

[GavinZac]

just a knee jerk reaction to appease the kind of people who should never have a say on these kind of things anyhow

You mean the victims?

[Wangball]

And that's why you'll never be a mod!!

Did you see where I said "just a knee jerk reaction to appease the kind of people who should never have a say on these kind of things anyhow"....thats you I was referring to!!!

[Wangball]

You mean the victims?

No I mean extremist idiots,

But now that you mention it I am also against the victims of crime having a say in the punishment of the criminal.

[GavinZac]

No I mean extremist idiots,

But now that you mention it I am also against the victims of crime having a say in the punishment of the criminal.

Right well you obviously wouldn't want to upset their feelings if they're going to be sitting alone for a long time. It'd wreck their heads thinking about it!

As someone said, life imprisonment is the death penalty dressed up "humanely". Frankly if I believed that any prisoner would ever spend their entire remaining years alone in a cell I wouldn't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the semi-luxurious conditions half of these lads live in, and the frequency that a few years of 'good behaviour' gets them out.

[Wangball]

What I do have a problem with is the semi-luxurious conditions half of these lads live in.

You'll get no argument from me on that one, I'd personally advocate the re-introduction of penal servitude and hard labour in most cases

[mypost]

So no I dont think 13 years is severe punishment for the offences. Maybe my problem with the justice system is that other people do.

As I said, sentences are so short these days, that 13 years is a very severe sentence. If you meted that out to every criminal, society would soon improve.

I think the main problem is the inconsistent use of it. That 13 years, could well be cut in half by a different judge. He could suspend part of the sentence, he could use it retrospectively, or he may reduce it again on appeal.

[Cymro]

I am against the death penalty. Not only because of the possibility of miscarriage of justice, but because of the possibility that the person might actually not be that bad a person, just a person in the wrong circumstances. Most people have the ability to murder, even serially, given dire enough circumstances. Not all of them are bristling monsters who want to do nothing but rape and pillage and kill all the time.

I would not even give Huntley the death penalty, even though what he has done is shocking. The justice system should only exist to get dangerous people out of the way of law-abiding citizens, not wreak vengeance for vengeance's sake. Even if there is only a 0.1% chance of Huntley actually atoning for what he has done, it's still enough of a chance to justify keeping him alive, albeit firmly away from anywhere he might potentially cause more harm to the public.

[GavinZac]

I am against the death penalty. Not only because of the possibility of miscarriage of justice, but because of the possibility that the person might actually not be that bad a person, just a person in the wrong circumstances. Most people have the ability to murder, even serially, given dire enough circumstances.

Er... *backs slowly away*

Even if there is only a 0.1% chance of Huntley actually atoning for what he has done, it's still enough of a chance to justify keeping him alive, albeit firmly away from anywhere he might potentially cause more harm to the public.

How exactly does a serial murderer, or a paedophile rapist atone for what they've done?

[Cymro]

Well, they can't turn back the clock, but for me if a rapist or a murderer were to dedicate themselves to some noble cause, and persist at it for a long period of time (presumably, the duration of their prison sentence), and show that they genuinely are sorry for what they've done, it'd be enough for me to let them back into the community.

[GavinZac]

it'd be enough for me to let them back into the community.

What a lovely life sentence you impose on the victims - to live every day in fear and paranoia. Do you suggest they get over it, because the rapist built some wicker baskets for a hospice?

[Cymro]

Well, not in those exact words, but yes.

Obviously a significant period of time will have elapsed by the time they would be eligible to be released. I think over a period of 20 years, a person that may have previously been a rapist can become a totally different person.

Every case should be treated on its own merits but justice systems should definitely have rehabilitation as a goal, even for the most serious offenders.

[GavinZac]

I think over a period of 20 years, a person that may have previously been a rapist can become a totally different person.

I don't think so, but hey...

Every case should be treated on its own merits but justice systems should definitely have rehabilitation as a goal, even for the most serious offenders.

I think the goal of a justice system is justice actually.

[Cymro]

Notice I said 'a goal' rather than 'primary goal'. 'Justice' means different things to different people anyway, and not all people find a 'seeing the agonised expression on his detached head sitting atop a pitchfork where the Father Matthew statue used to be' (to use your words) approach particularly just in all cases, or even a majority.

[osarusan]

Every case should be treated on its own merits but justice systems should definitely have rehabilitation as a goal, even for the most serious offenders.

I think the goal of a justice system is justice actually.

He says 'a goal' but you say 'the goal'......brilliant. Debating techniques which any 12-year-old should be ashamed of.

[GavinZac]

He says 'a goal' but you say 'the goal'......brilliant. Debating techniques which any 12-year-old should be ashamed of.

I'm not twisting his point; By "the goal" I mean there shouldn't be any others. Well done on the petty name calling though, the irony is delicious.

People don't change; and it is not the responsibility of the justice system to attempt to do so, it is their responsibility to provide justice to the victims. I have no idea whether you can empathise or not but if you imagine a scenario where your mother or sister was raped, do you think 10 or 15 years down the line when they're back on the street and they've "behaved" in jail you or they would be able to imagine the rapist as anything but?

[Cymro]

People don't change; and it is not the responsibility of the justice system to attempt to do so, it is their responsibility to provide justice to the victims. I have no idea whether you can empathise or not but if you imagine a scenario where your mother or sister was raped, do you think 10 or 15 years down the line when they're back on the street and they've "behaved" in jail you or they would be able to imagine the rapist as anything but?

If no-one could change, why are we having this debate, or any debates for that matter? People are not born killers; that would make no sense, as we'd all be dead within a generation. People are only driven to kill because they have $hitty, meaningless lives. Whilst a lengthy prison sentence will not change everyone, it will change some. There have always been countless anecdotal stories of druggies, murderers and rapists becoming model citizens, even if the statistics show these cases are firmly in the minority. Early release should be an option for the most promising cases, although I do agree that the status quo gives too lenient sentences in most cases.

The responsibility of the justice system should be to provide justice for all, not just victims. That means giving the guilty second chances whilst also showing them that their actions will have consequences.

[GavinZac]

People are only driven to kill because they have $hitty, meaningless lives.

Bullsh*t. People kill because they are the type of personality that can kill, put in a situation where it suits them. Killing to survive or in defense is one thing but the type of person that knifes their wife because he's having an affair, molests an alter boy or rapes and kills a little girl - they're driven by some sort of existentialism?