Euro 2008: Lessons for Ireland?

**Billsthoughts** · 02/07/2008, 10:13 AM

In fairness couple of good points there about why we have done well. I would say with Finland and Iceland that enviroment wouldnt be suited to playing football? Hungary always did ok before the fall of communism(World Cup final afair) so Im assuming they have had other things on their mind since then?

**Emmet** · 02/07/2008, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I think if you look back I answered all your questions quite reasonably. If you read my posts you will see I think there is NO system in place at the mo and we are relying on dumb luck if we produce any players ... I go back to my original point thats its attitudes like yours that are the reason we dont have a strong national team.

Bill - I specifically asked 'When you talk about having a proper 'system' what sort of thing are you thinking of? What would it look like?' You have not answered this. You have criticised me and my supposed attitude in several posts but you have consistently failed to put forward a concrete model of how you would like to see football structured in Ireland. Get off the fence and start answering questions! It is too easy to sit there and knock others' opinions and ideas - its altogether a much more challenging task to put forward your own.

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

how many players come back from England and never play the game again? Is football in this country best served by that?

I don't know the answer to that. How many are there? You've already acknowledged that you cannot think of any Irish player who came back from England branded 'a failure' who was good enough to make it as a senior international for us ... are we discussing those Irish players who have genuine ability and talent and who could enhance our national team, or are we talking about those Irish players who won't necessarily be household names but who are good enough to make it as (at least) semi-pros?

**Emmet** · 02/07/2008, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by cavan_fan

1 - Our players have had good access to the English Leagues allowing them to develop in a professional enviornment. This is declining now as English clubs cast their nets wider.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - it is a lot more competitive in England than it was 10-15 years ago. Whether English football will be able to sustain this over a prolonged period of time is debatable. Several years ago Spain was the place to be, before that it was Italy. English league football is going through a rich vein right now but it won't always be like this. Besides, I still firmly believe that the individuals with talent - those who really are good - will get through and will get the opportunity to develop their skills and abilities in England.

**geysir** · 02/07/2008, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

At present they do nothing. I dont know much about the coaching of under 16s but Liam Brady head of Arsenals Academy does. He had an article not so long ago were he heavily criticised the level of coaching at that age in Ireland. Read in to it what you will.

Which points did Brady make?

AFAIR the Brady refrain is critical of the negativity inbuilt into the coaching of youngsters.
The Arsenal motto is "Accept disappointment, praise good work and refrain from criticising his efforts. Encourage and support him without putting him under pressure.''

AFAIK the FAI have started their Acadamy and have had high demand for their Coach Education courses

It was ironic that in Traps 2nd game against Colombia, we had the sight of the most balls being hoofed up front since the Charlton days. Even Dunne was hoofing it when not under any pressure.

Strikes me that many of our players take onboard from an early age an overproportionate amount of fear in their football coaching. Fear of making a mistake. A competent player like Dunne gets afflicted.
How many times do hear it being shouted out, never lose the ball here, never get caught, you never... you effin eejit, fear on top of fear. There is an all pervasive atmosphere of fear.
Reading the Paul McShane thread here is like being stuck in a Dublin taxi for an hour.

Stan talked a good talk about the importance of confidence of youngsters and ways they can strenghten it.

**eirebhoy** · 02/07/2008, 12:34 PM

What age do players in this country start getting thought the tactical part of the game? In the likes of Spain and Italy I bet they have them using their brains from a very early age. It's (football intelligence) without doubt the most important attribute in a player yet the youth in Ireland seem to have to figure it out for theirselves.

I worked with a Swedish girl. She joined an Irish girls team and she noticed the difference straight away. She said the girls just ran with the ball. They didn't think about passing. They didn't sit back, get their head up and look around.

It's the one and only difference between Ireland and Britain and the rest of the world imho. I always say it but you need very little technical ability to pass a ball 3 or 4 yards. Spain were a joy to watch yet 90% of their passes were simple passes that any footballer could make. It was the time they took to make the pass and the availability of their teammates that made it look so superb. That is all down to intelligence. England certainly don't lack technically gifted players. Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Carrick, Barry, and many more have equal amount of technical ability as their Spanish counterparts. They lack their movement and everything else that comes with football intelligence in a midfield player.

It's incredible that Trapattoni had to give all our players a 2 page report on what they need to work on.

**Emmet** · 02/07/2008, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

It's incredible that Trapattoni had to give all our players a 2 page report on what they need to work on.

I didn't know that. What sort of things did he identify?

**Billsthoughts** · 02/07/2008, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I think if you look back I answered all your questions quite reasonably. If you read my posts you will see I think there is NO system in place at the mo and we are relying on dumb luck if we produce any players. all you want me to do is mention strong domestic league so you can go off on one about Eircom league players not making it in england therefore not being good enough. Its been done to death. boring and irrelevant. If you honestly beleive that Irish football is best served by the present system were we rely on English clubs to produce our players well then I go back to my original point thats its attitudes like yours that are the reason we dont have a strong national team. and after answering all your questions I have one for you...
how many players come back from England and never play the game again? Is football in this country best served by that?

Emmet I answered you here. I also countered ALL the points you made in my other posts.

Below is a qoute from Darragh Sheridan former Aston Villa trainee
"It's quite a blow to learn your contract is not going to be renewed when all you dreamt about since you were a child was to be a big time footballer. Add to that the pressure of facing all your friends and family who proudly waved you goodbye and the fact that you may not have completed your secondary education and there is quite a temptation to completely reject football and sport at any level."
http://www3.dcu.ie/news/press/2002/p0702a.shtml

Not exactly a ringing endorsement to what you think is a system that works fine and dandy.
Geysir again. see above.
Emmet the Fai would pay consultants thousands of euros to come up with a plan to bring football forward in this country, do you honestly think I can produce a blueprint for change in a couple of posts? That doesn�t change the fact that the present way of doing things is deeply flawed and totally out of our own hands.

**Wolfie** · 02/07/2008, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

It's incredible that Trapattoni had to give all our players a 2 page report on what they need to work on.

McShane got off lightly with 2 pages.

**irishultra** · 02/07/2008, 1:01 PM

McShane made two mistakes(two too many) in the last two games. One proved costly.

He was class against Serbia IMO.

**Emmet** · 02/07/2008, 1:02 PM

So basically you're happy to moan and whinge about how things currently are but you have absolutely no intention of offering a potential solution (either because you are unable to think of any or simply because you cannot be bothered). I'd argue that its that type of negative laziness that is holding football back in Ireland.

**Emmet** · 02/07/2008, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Not exactly a ringing endorsement to what you think is a system that works fine and dandy.

What I actually said was:

Originally Posted by Emmet

I'll admit it is not ideal but ...

**Wolfie** · 02/07/2008, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by irishultra

McShane made two mistakes(two too many) in the last two games. One proved costly.

He was class against Serbia IMO.

Yeah - a tad uncalled for on my part. McShane could yet develop into an accomplished player.

**eirebhoy** · 02/07/2008, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfie

McShane got off lightly with 2 pages.

Thanfully Trap is a fantastic judge of a player. We could question the decisions of our last few managers to pick certain players but if I ever disagree with Trap I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. McShane-Dunne is our best partnership no matter who's available imo. McShane was superb against Colombia and I think he'll be starting against Montenegro if available. I'm delighted with that. I can't wait to see them play together in the qualifiers.

I truely believed Trap would pick McShane and Dunne for centre half. As I said before a ball was kicked I was delighted he watched all of McShane's games for Ireland and got to see how good he can/will be.

**Wolfie** · 02/07/2008, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Thanfully Trap is a fantastic judge of a player. We could question the decisions of our last few managers to pick certain players but if I ever disagree with Trap I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. McShane-Dunne is our best partnership no matter who's available imo. McShane was superb against Colombia and I think he'll be starting against Montenegro if available. I'm delighted with that. I can't wait to see them play together in the qualifiers.

I truely believed Trap would pick McShane and Dunne for centre half. As I said before a ball was kicked I was delighted he watched all of McShane's games for Ireland and got to see how good he can/will be.

My previous flippancy aside - I do agree McShane could well develop into a decent player (I'm on record on the Paul McShane thread). I think its fair comment that he has certain areas of his game that require attention.

Still a doubt he'll be available for Montenegro also.

**Billsthoughts** · 02/07/2008, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Emmet

So basically you're happy to moan and whinge about how things currently are but you have absolutely no intention of offering a potential solution (either because you are unable to think of any or simply because you cannot be bothered). I'd argue that its that type of negative laziness that is holding football back in Ireland.

Stop trolling.

Im happy to criticise a state of affairs that doesnt work in the best interest of Irish Football or of our underage players. Your happy to support that state of affairs because your imagination cant contemplate any alternative.
Possible solutions -
- regional acadamies with top class coaches with a unified coaching philosophy that take the place of the english clubs in player development.
-ban on players going abroad until they reach a certain age.
-academy teams playing games against other academy teams in europe.
-a feeder system so players can move easily into the Eircom League
-Greater support for the league from great Irish public

**John83** · 02/07/2008, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

-ban on players going abroad until they reach a certain age.

Several of those made me raise an eyebrow. This one though, wow. That's not even remotely possible.

**Billsthoughts** · 02/07/2008, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by John83

Several of those made me raise an eyebrow. This one though, wow. That's not even remotely possible.

Shock horror John 83 comes out of the long grass

they were suggestions they werent the be all and end all. At the moment there is nothing there. If the English clubs decided they didnt want to scout in Ireland in the morning what would we do for players?

btw there are restrictions placed on English clubs on where they can scout. afair age restrictions operate in Norway or did operate until quite recently.

**Emmet** · 02/07/2008, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Possible solutions -
- regional acadamies with top class coaches with a unified coaching philosophy that take the place of the english clubs in player development.
-ban on players going abroad until they reach a certain age.
-academy teams playing games against other academy teams in europe.
-a feeder system so players can move easily into the Eircom League
-Greater support for the league from great Irish public

There ... that didn't hurt now, did it? For what its worth, I wouldn't have a problem with any of that other than with the ban on emigration.

**geysir** · 02/07/2008, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

http://www3.dcu.ie/news/press/2002/p0702a.shtml

Not exactly a ringing endorsement to what you think is a system that works fine and dandy.
Geysir again. see above.

That is a program which attempted to deal with some of the returning kids some 6 years ago.
The FAI have a development plan now, which at least has a deal of activity which I referred to.
We are talking about different things.

**Billsthoughts** · 02/07/2008, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

That is a program which attempted to deal with some of the returning kids some 6 years ago.
The FAI have a development plan now, which at least has a deal of activity which I referred to.
We are talking about different things.

The qoute is still relevant. I just posted a link to the article the qoute came from.