AIL 'On Long Finger'

[seanfhear]

There is a large propotion of people in ni that have football as their first sport of choice which can be proved in recent times by having a competive international team[also historically].I believe that they are crying out for a more competitive fayre.If linfield/glentoran were in serious contention to win the ail with the competition that this would bring from southern teams you then have the ingredients to attract more fans.We cannot just throw our hands in the air and say that there can be no improvements to irish football.When it was suggested that summer football be brought in there was naysayers and doom merchants and it has really improved the quality of football played in the loi.If the ail was established in one or two years there would not a thought of going back to the situation we have now

[jebus]

There is a large propotion of people in ni that have football as their first sport of choice which can be proved in recent times by having a competive international team[also historically].I believe that they are crying out for a more competitive fayre.If linfield/glentoran were in serious contention to win the ail with the competition that this would bring from southern teams you then have the ingredients to attract more fans.We cannot just throw our hands in the air and say that there can be no improvements to irish football.When it was suggested that summer football be brought in there was naysayers and doom merchants and it has really improved the quality of football played in the loi.If the ail was established in one or two years there would not a thought of going back to the situation we have now

I'm not concerned with IL teams attracting more fans, I'm talking about LoI teams attracting more fans. Glentoran are no more going to attract a crowd in Limerick than Galway do, and it would be the same around the country I feel. Linfield would probably attract the wrong sort of fan, the Southern knuckledragger who still thinks we can just take back the 6 counties, but they at least would probably contend for the title, so in theory would add a few more fans to the gates of their fellow title contenders. My question would then be if it would be worth it to lose a Champions League spot among us, have our Uefa Cup teams cut down as well, and boot established Premier Legadue sides like UCD (and they are an established side no matter what some of you might think) for the sake of attracting 2-300 fans to the grounds of Pats, Bohs, Cork and whoever else is in the league title race in the AIL for the Linfield game alone

[Gather round]

I'm not awareof anyone who thinks an AIL is the magic wand for Irish football. Most just think itwill better than what we've currently got.

[Ealing Green] treated us to a lovely treatise on why you think an all-island league is funamentally flawed (hevaily based on assumption your arguement is though). Regadless - please explain the alternative as you see it ? Please exlain what non-AIL future you see for Irish football, and particularly the IL ? If you question the viability of 6-8 full-time clubs on an all-island basis, please explain what future you see for an IL with only one or two full-time clubs ?

NI could survive with

a) two full time clubs in an otherwise part time and thus uncompetitive league

b) outside competition in the early rounds of UEFA plus Setanta

c) the better young players going straight to professional football in England from school. And then providing our international side, like yours.

Whereas in an AIL Glentoran, Linfield, Portadown and Cliftonville could potentially flourish with extra investment, thus better players etc. On the other hand, they- particularly Linfield- wouldn't start almost every season as clear favourite. Which might see interest fall off.

Middle-ranking IL teams would have an extra hurdle to get into Europe (assuming they see that as a priority).

[GavinZac]

Ah yes, get rid of a UCD team who do enough every year to stay in the Premier and replace them with a Limerick side who haven't played in the Premier in how long?

Added to that, their finances can't be any better than UCD's, considering the amount of times they've come close to hitting the wall and, in fact, hitting it a few years ago.

But Galway are being included in the proposals at this stage.

You really are confused, but it would help if you read my posts.

[GavinZac]

Why would the support improve? Why would hundreds more people pay to see Cliftonville struggle to stay up that currently pay to watch Cobh struggle to stay up?

You don't see that replacing say, UCD with Linfield, would increase the average attendances in the league? Come on, this is simple maths.

Why would hundreds more people pay to watch Cork play Sligo in the AIL than currently pay to watch them in the eL?

I didn't say they would. The point is having one, two or three less '**** clubs with no fans'.

[seanfhear]

we need a more competitive league so that when our teams do get into europe that they can be competitive there.Its only when our teams produce results in europe that some people will sit up and take notice. It may be the chicken and egg scenario but to get improvements in european we have to take advantage of the situation on this island that can make our league more competitive.Fair dos to linfield for all their league titles but against what opposition in recent times .The stiffer the competition the higher the standards it is in our human makeup

[jebus]

we need a more competitive league so that when our teams do get into europe that they can be competitive there.Its only when our teams produce results in europe that some people will sit up and take notice. It may be the chicken and egg scenario but to get improvements in european we have to take advantage of the situation on this island that can make our league more competitive.Fair dos to linfield for all their league titles but against what opposition in recent times .The stiffer the competition the higher the standards it is in our human makeup

But my point is that UEFA are hardly going to give us the same European places as the Scottish Premier, so we would end up having less teams in the Europe, which would equal less chances of someone 'doing a Shels' again. Even on the Shels point, their European Cup run that ended with an honourable defeat against Depor hardly morphed into more credit for the league did it? It was viewed by barstoolers in the same way Havant's match against Liverpool in the FA Cup last year was, a 'oh it's nice the rubbish teams get their day in the sun isn't it?', and they then went back to watching the Premiership on Saturday evenings

[GavinZac]

But my point is that UEFA are hardly going to give us the same European places as the Scottish Premier, so we would end up having less teams in the Europe, which would equal less chances of someone 'doing a Shels' again. Even on the Shels point, their European Cup run that ended with an honourable defeat against Depor hardly morphed into more credit for the league did it? It was viewed by barstoolers in the same way Havant's match against Liverpool in the FA Cup last year was, a 'oh it's nice the rubbish teams get their day in the sun isn't it?', and they then went back to watching the Premiership on Saturday evenings

We (meaning eircom league fans) wouldn't lose any places. We'd end up sharing them with NI teams though. The increased competition for those places would only be a good thing - less chance of unprepared part-time players representing us. Recognition will obviously either take a series of good results e.g. qualification for the UEFA groups - or one fortuitous draw that sees a team into the CL groups. If we don't believe that then we might as well pack it in and go back to a few lads playing on Sunday morning with a hangover

[seanfhear]

But my point is that UEFA are hardly going to give us the same European places as the Scottish Premier, so we would end up having less teams in the Europe, which would equal less chances of someone 'doing a Shels' again. Even on the Shels point, their European Cup run that ended with an honourable defeat against Depor hardly morphed into more credit for the league did it? It was viewed by barstoolers in the same way Havant's match against Liverpool in the FA Cup last year was, a 'oh it's nice the rubbish teams get their day in the sun isn't it?', and they then went back to watching the Premiership on Saturday evenings

I dont know if it would be possible or not bit it would be very helpful to the establishment of an ail if uefa gave the new league some extra european places for the first 2/3 years.There are solutions if the will and ambition are there

[GavinZac]

I dont know if it would be possible or not bit it would be very helpful to the establishment of an ail if uefa gave the new league some extra european places for the first 2/3 years.There are solutions if the will and ambition are there

Looking for handouts from europe again?

[jebus]

We (meaning eircom league fans) wouldn't lose any places. We'd end up sharing them with NI teams though.

I know, but putting us together in one league we would lose places from our combined total.

If we don't believe that then we might as well pack it in and go back to a few lads playing on Sunday morning with a hangover

You haven't watched much First Division then?

I dont know if it would be possible or not bit it would be very helpful to the establishment of an ail if uefa gave the new league some extra european places for the first 2/3 years.There are solutions if the will and ambition are there

Not a hope, even combining the IL and LoI co-efficient points we fall short of what we need to gain extra places

[seanfhear]

Looking for handouts from europe again?

you got me there
It would be interesting to get a uefa perspective on an ail but i doubt if they will make any comment .Being pro ail I would like to hear some encouragement

[gufct]

Despite looking for Negatives which seems always to be the forte of el fans why not look at the positives.

1. A properly run well financed league .

2. Well Marketed.

3 Supported by both governments and backed by international sponsors.

4. A properly financed television deal

5. Impoved Stadia & facilities throughout the country.


As for the teams who are interested in being involved there is far more chance of a properly run Limerick or Galway attracting new fans and sustaining them than the majority of clubs not invoved.

Im not fully convinced that the time is right for an AIL but somthing serious has to be done as what we have now is not working.

[jebus]

1. A properly run well financed league .

2. Well Marketed.

3 Supported by both governments and backed by international sponsors.

4. A properly financed television deal

5. Impoved Stadia & facilities throughout the country.

1. Would it be? What if attendences didn't increase? As a Galway fan you must know that projected income sometimes doesn't translate into actual money

2. In what way would it be better marketed than the current model?

3. Which international sponser (that would make a difference) is willing to come on board?

4. Our new television deal isn't bad at all

5. How? Where's the money coming from to improve the stadiums and facilities?

As for Limerick and Galway attracting more fans if well run, I'm starting to have my doubts about that for both clubs to be honest. I think Limerick have fallen too far behind our rugby friends in the minds of the Limerick sporting public to ever make a dent (barring a complete collapse of the Munster franchise of course), add to that a lot of peoples distrust of Limerick senior football and I find it hard to see us breaking 2k attendence even as an established AIL Premier side. Galway on the other hand, well the financial problems and falling attendance even in the Premier with a big name manager would suggest to me that Galway just isn't a football town. Not trying to have a dig but there's no real footballing history for the barstoolers to latch onto with GUFC, so unless Galway went on some miracle run in the AIL I wouldn't be sure about the club attracting the type of hardcore fanbase this new league would hope ye would.

[osarusan]

You don't see that replacing say, UCD with Linfield, would increase the average attendances in the league? Come on, this is simple maths.

Of course it would. Linfield get bigger crowds, and they'll bring a greater away support to games. But thats the average attendance. The number of fans at a Cork Sligo game wouldn't be increasing at all. So we'd get bigger numbers at one game a week, but the others would see no change in numbers. I don't think thats much progress.

I reckon replacing our current bottom 3, UCD, Ramblers and Galway with 3 top clubs from the North would immediately and significantly bump up the quality (and support) of teams in the premier.

And that's right now, with 0 funding or promotion changes.

What did you mean when you wrote that post? It reads to me like you think that in an AIL, attendances will increase at all clubs. If that is your point, then I just don't see why that would happen.

[passerrby]

I'm not awareof anyone who thinks an AIL is the magic wand for Irish football.
Most just think itwill better than what we've currently got.

You've treated us to a lovely treatise on why you think an all-island league is funamentally flawed (hevaily based on assumption your arguement is though). Regadless - please explain the alternative as you see it ? Please exlain what non-AIL future you see for Irish football, and particularly the IL ? If you question the viability of 6-8 full-time clubs on an all-island basis, please explain what future you see for an IL with only one or two full-time clubs ?

actualuy some people do think its the solution to all there problems. personnally i dont think it would be any inprovement on the current mess.
everything we discuss here is based on assumtions as the ail group are unable or unwilling to lay out there plans for all to see.
as for alternative why not a twenty two team league with teams dropping out if the dont come up to a certain critiea after say five years.
this plan may be crap but has as much valitidy as an ail.
i think that pass history questions the viability of full time football on the island.

[superfrank]

You really are confused, but it would help if you read my posts.

You referred to the AIL as your "get rid of UCD" plan.

As it stands, Limerick and Galway will be let in. Having Limerick and Galway in there is a joke. Both these clubs are not as well-run as UCD. Whereas UCD have consistent crowds, Limerick and Galway don't. UCD have a better squad than both, yet the AIL would rather include them.

Are you going to continue to support the rich-club AIL if these two are included in the proposals?

[dcfcsteve]

I know, but putting us together in one league we would lose places from our combined total.

The old trusty Euro places red herring...

Every EL club can currently compete for only one of four Euro spaces. The same for each IL club. Under an AIL each of those clubs would STILL be competing for only one of four places - so numerically no individual club woukld be any worsee off. Competition for those spaces would be higher - granted. But anythingt that changes a league would have a similar effect. Did everyone complain aboutn the 1985 expansion of the League of Ireland on the basis that more teams would make Euro qualification more difficult ?

There would be actually be a very strong arguement to say that an AIL could lead to an increase in the number of Euro slots available to each individual club over time. More larger teams in a single league should lead to better Euro results, which would eventually lead to better seeding, additional Euro spaces etc.

The Euro slots arguement is a pure red herring - usually served up un-ccoked with little thought behind it.

[GavinZac]

Are you going to continue to support the rich-club AIL if these two are included in the proposals?

Lesser of two evils. Pointless unambitious club with no hope of ever attracting a decent support base in an already saturated catchment area, or two currently poor choices for premier teams (you'll notice i was the first to point this out)? As I said, I would prefer if Galway or Limerick weren't involved. However, at least someday its a remote possibility either club could be seriously challenging and drawing good crowds. UCD never have, they never will. To the outside world, they are the punchline in the joke that is Irish football.

[osarusan]

Every EL club can currently compete for only one of four Euro spaces. The same for each IL club.

At the moment, 8 clubs will get into Europe from the two seperate leagues. In the event of the AIL starting, that number would be reduced to 4. Thats what he meant by saying "combined total".

And thats only if European places are available in an AIL, which is not certain yet either.