AIL 'On Long Finger'

[jebus]

InterToto's gone from this year; the spot goes to the UEFA. But other than that, you're spot on.

Had forgotten about that

Nice to see that the pro-AILers haven't a response for my points?

[pineapple stu]

You have someone nominated as a "CPO". You are not participating in the FAI's allocation and half-and-half funding of an actually qualified, professional CPO, because really, whats the point?

You said we "didn't bother" with one. In fact, we are very much bothering with one, to the extent that we have appointed an interim CPO immediately after our old one left (shock horror as person moves job) and will are looking for a new full time CPO.

because the young one behind the counter picked up a back issue (yes, we have those, too!) instead of a current one

Young one behind the counter, person out from with the bag full of these he picked up from the club, same difference, eh?

But sure you know what you're talking about all the time; we must all bow to your superior knowledge, even when you're talking tripe.

[GavinZac]

At the moment between the Republic and Northern Ireland there is a total of 8 European slots available (2 CL, 4 Uefa and 2 Intertoto), if an AIL happened there would in most probability be 4 (1 CL, 2 Uefa and 1 Intertoto), best we could hope for would be an extra Intertoto off Uefa. Since this league is supposed to be about pushing the standard here up and creating a better product we are talking about what the league has to offer as an attraction, I know what you're trying to point out, but, well it's just a ridiculous argument to be honest, junior infant maths shows we'll be worse off

Who's we? We certainly don't have access to 8 slots. My club will be looking for one of 4 European places, the same as they have been for years. The challengers for those places will be stronger, but being afraid of a little competition isn't a very firm commercial standpoint. Clubs like Linfield or Glentoran will be in the same situation; they just face stiffer opposition for their usual 4 places. With the "dropping" of 8 qualification positions from the no longer existing FAI/IFA leagues and their replacement with 4 for the new league, there'll be a little rejigging of place allocations over all (our coefficient would probably take a hit, if they simply divide the combined points by two), but that'll probably just mean an extra qualifier for the nations currently ranked above us. Who knows, with a few good years of participatiuon we could drag ourselves into that now widened bracket (unless the freed up spots are immediately filled by yet-another-balkans-offshoot).

Simple answer is yes. If they didn't the AIL would have a total of 8 European places on offer, so if it were a ten man league that would mean you would only have to avoid relegation to get into Europe. Not to mention that that would put us on par with the Big 3 (England, Spain and Italy) in terms of places allocated, and would push us ahead of Russia, Romania and Portugal (to name but a few)

Which as you can see, is a ridiculous situation and not going to happen.

[GavinZac]

You said we "didn't bother" with one. In fact, we are very much bothering with one, to the extent that we have appointed an interim CPO immediately after our old one left (shock horror as person moves job) and will are looking for a new full time CPO.

Of course you appointed an interim CPO - a well run club wouldn't be doing very well if it was picking up licensing fines would they? You'd swear it was some sort of achievement to tick the basic boxes and exist.

Young one behind the counter, person out from with the bag full of these he picked up from the club, same difference, eh?

Is this pinyin?

But sure you know what you're talking about all the time; we must all bow to your superior knowledge, even when you're talking tripe.

Now now stu, when did this turn personal?

[pineapple stu]

So we've gone from we "don't bother" with it, to "of course" we're bothering with it. Which is it to be?

[GavinZac]

So we've gone from we "don't bother" with it, to "of course" we're bothering with it. Which is it to be?

No, you're not bothering with it. You're putting someone's name down on a sheet of paper. We and the other clubs are paying a full time qualified marketing professional to report both to club boards and to Noel Mooney. "Same difference, eh?"

[jebus]

Who's we? We certainly don't have access to 8 slots. My club will be looking for one of 4 European places, the same as they have been for years. The challengers for those places will be stronger, but being afraid of a little competition isn't a very firm commercial standpoint. Clubs like Linfield or Glentoran will be in the same situation; they just face stiffer opposition for their usual 4 places.

And if you're trying to appeal to the clubs hanging around the fringes, say Cliftonville or Sligo, and put forward this league as a step forward, and they counter that they will have less chance of gaining any of those 4 European slots then you say?

I realise supporters of Cork, Derry and Linfield may just look at this as, oh well it will be the same as before, but for all the other teams that are hanging around mid-table in their respective leagues this will be a step back for them. Even with Linfield they may not be so happy to not have that guaranteed CL spot anymore. Not to mention that if a club like Cork or Derry were to slip into mid table obscurity it would hardly help their attendance would it?

[pineapple stu]

No, you're not bothering with it. You're putting someone's name down on a sheet of paper. "Same difference, eh?"

And this somebody is doing no work, presumably?

Proof, please?

[osarusan]

You'd swear it was some sort of achievement to tick the basic boxes and exist.

It is an achievement for a club like UCD to still exist.

Lots of clubs have fallen by the wayside because they shot for the stars without a leg to stand on if they came up short.

UCD have lived within their means, and should be commended for it.

[GavinZac]

And this somebody is doing no work, presumably? Proof, please?

The proof is that despite your long established existence, privileged position as literally the representatives of a constantly rotating population of 22000 young, mobile people with cash burning holes in their pockets, despite admirable adherence to the top flight and despite location as the representatives of the most affluent portion of the primate city of this country, you're scraping in less well wishers than Áine Ní Chonaill.

[Magicme]

No, you're not bothering with it. You're putting someone's name down on a sheet of paper. We and the other clubs are paying a full time qualified marketing professional to report both to club boards and to Noel Mooney. "Same difference, eh?"

Two points here, if they were just "putting someone's name down on a sheet of paper" how come UCD have had representatives at the last 2 CPO training programmes and secondly, not all are "qualified marketing professionals" but people who are from various backgrounds and were selected for the CPO roles for various reasons.

As Jebus said, UCD are actually a good example of a well run club who are working hard to increase crowds whilst working within their budgets.

[Student Mullet]

I can't believe that someone looking for fault in the UCD program picked on the 'Around the World' column, which is very good, and ignored the 'where did Aberdonian Stu eat this week?' column.

[Kivlehan]

Simple answer is yes. If they didn't the AIL would have a total of 8 European places on offer, so if it were a ten man league that would mean you would only have to avoid relegation to get into Europe. Not to mention that that would put us on par with the Big 3 (England, Spain and Italy) in terms of places allocated, and would push us ahead of Russia, Romania and Portugal (to name but a few)

I must have explained what I meant poorly as I did not intend to suggest that any two teams could grab the two champions league spots. I'll illustrate the example with a league table below:

All-Ireland Premier League Final Standings
----------------------------------------
1. Sligo Rovers (RoI CL place)*
2. Cork City (RoI UEFA Cup place)
3. Linfield (NI CL place)
4. St. Patrick's Athletic (RoI UEFA Cup place)
5. Bohemians (RoI Intertoto place)
6. Glentoran (NI UEFA Cup place)
7. Derry City (no Euro place ... or would they start counting as NI?)
8. Drogheda United
9. Cliftonville (NI UEFA Cup place)
10. Galway United

Below you would have an RoI first division and NI first division. The NI Intertoto place in this scenario would come from the champion of the NI first division.

* = Feel free to insert your own favorite club in the top spot of your own example scenario.

[pineapple stu]

Would be shocked if UEFA went with that though.

[OneRedArmy]

Even by the usual amnesiac foot.ie standards this thread surely breaks records for rehashing old arguments so soon after the last thread dissolved into stalemate.

Suggest this be added to the existing thread as the turkeys in Belfast voting against Christmas hardly qualifies as a major story.

By no means will an All Ireland League be the Holy Grail for Irish football, but the blatant defensive self-interest of many posters on this thread tells its own story.

[dcfcsteve]

At the moment between the Republic and Northern Ireland there is a total of 8 European slots available (2 CL, 4 Uefa and 2 Intertoto), if an AIL happened there would in most probability be 4 (1 CL, 2 Uefa and 1 Intertoto), best we could hope for would be an extra Intertoto off Uefa. Since this league is supposed to be about pushing the standard here up and creating a better product we are talking about what the league has to offer as an attraction, I know what you're trying to point out, but, well it's just a ridiculous argument to be honest, junior infant maths shows we'll be worse offn

You're just not getting this Jebus.

Im not talkng about the total number of Euro slots across the two leagues, for one very simpe reason - no club can qualify for more than one space.

As the EL currently stands, Limerick can strive for only one of the EL's 4 Euro slots,. The fact there are alos currently 4 Euro slots in the IL - are any other league for that matter - is irrelevant, as Limerick can only strive for one of the EL's four.

Under an AIL - Guess what ? Limerick could still only strive for one Euro slot from the combined league's four. Competiton for those slots may possibly be stiffer - an particularly in the earlier years - but loads of changes in football incrase such qualification competitveness anyway WITHIN existing leagues. Drogheda having money invested in them, for example, has increased the level of competition for Euro slots, as the club was pony up until 5 years ago and wasn't directly competing for the slots.

In summary :

Under EL : 4 Euro slots available to each individual EL club.
Under AIL :4 Euro sots available to each individual EL club.

Iin an abstract '4+4=8' fashion, slots have been lost. But in terms of the actual impact on each individual club they haven't been. You can't lose out on something you never had/weren't entitled to in the first place, and no club in Ireland has ever been entitled to more than one Euro slot from a sum total of four.

[dcfcsteve]

And if you're trying to appeal to the clubs hanging around the fringes, say Cliftonville or Sligo, and put forward this league as a step forward, and they counter that they will have less chance of gaining any of those 4 European slots then you say?

I realise supporters of Cork, Derry and Linfield may just look at this as, oh well it will be the same as before, but for all the other teams that are hanging around mid-table in their respective leagues this will be a step back for them. Even with Linfield they may not be so happy to not have that guaranteed CL spot anymore. Not to mention that if a club like Cork or Derry were to slip into mid table obscurity it would hardly help their attendance would it?

So now it's about attendances, not the magical lot Euro slots that no single team was ever able to access anyway...?

Do you want a hand with shifting those goalposts - they look heavy...?

[dcfcsteve]

No, your inability to do maths has led you to not accept you're wrong. Big difference. I've used probability theory, common sense and shooting people to show you you're wrong, but if you want to continue believing you're right, there's nothing we can do. Just like people can believe the earth is flat or the sun goes around the earth, and hold onto that belief while denying all evidence to the contrary.

Yet again - you're disproving nothing. Just snotty comments that don't tackle any of the substance of what I'm saying.

So are you suggestng that any single club in Ireland does have more than four Euro slots that they can compete for - yes or no ?

[Poor Student]

Regardless if you think being one of the only clubs not to even bother with a promotions officer, playing home games at a rugby training pitch

Gavin, that is Libertas style contortion of the truth. The club parted company with the CPO last month and the role is being filled on an interim basis by someone who has worked closed with the old CPO over the last 18 months and is involved in sports administration in UCD. I've been able to coordinate the usual volunteer work I carried out with the old CPO with the new guy, he's quite enthusiastic about the position and not just filling it for the sake of technicality.

The Bowl is the home of UCD RFC, one of the better rugby clubs in this country. It's not just a training pitch and like other clubs and our national teams it is serving as a dual rugby/soccer ground.

[pineapple stu]

Yet again - you're disproving nothing. Just snotty comments that don't tackle any of the substance of what I'm saying.

So are you suggestng that any single club in Ireland does have more than four Euro slots that they can compete for - yes or no ?

I've proven this for you before. As I recall, you came out with more and more ridiculous maths to "prove" yourself right. It was like explaining maths to a retarded chimpanzee at the time, so I don't see what's to be gained from explaining it again. If you want to give it another go, look back at the last time we had this discussion. Fortunately, everyone else can see you're talking rubbish.