Actually yes, the former would be a result of the latter.Originally Posted by Greenforever
Probably both
Let me restate that post to ThirdPoliceman -
It seems you can't read and digest information properly, and as a result, don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Precisely what information have I been unable to read or understand. The majority of postings on the AIPL thread are negative, whilst there has been a very consistent line on this thread from committed EL fans against the Celtic League and Atlantic League models. So I make a fairly reasonable suggestion that the two models could exist along side each other and get abuse.
Just to demonstrate how sadly obsessive and defensive I am, I have just revisited the AIPL thread to make sure that I was not in some delusional state when I last read it. Guess what! I wasn't 60% of responses are downright hostile, the rest range from sceptical to cautious. There is virtually no support for the AIPL model put forward and only tentative and qualified support for the priniple.
In the light of this thread and the reaction to the AIPL proposal, it does seem reasonable to conclude that most EL fans believe that the existing system aint broke. The vast majority of Irish soccer fans think differently and are voting with their feet. I also believe that the majority of those who support Man UTD, Liverpool, Celtic et al yearn for the chance to follow an Irish side that could compete and succeed at the higher levels of club fotball. It's why so many of us follow the national team, travel to away games and have a much stronger sense of affinity / passion for the national team than we have for our adopted club. It's also why so many Irish supporters would never dream of supporting the EL. After the buzz and ecstacy of "real" football, it seems woefully provincial and desolate. In football terms size matters, part of supporting a club is about belonging and being connected to something that is dramatic, significant and inspiring. Of course clubs like Bohs, Shamrock Rovers etc have history and heritage, but it is mainly about back-yard achievements, plucky performances against middling European opposition, and dignified defeats. Irish club soccer is a relic of post-colonialism. Most Irish people today do not want or expect second best. They rightly believe that this country can succeed and compete, that we can at last join the grown-ups and have sporting heroes like Padraig Harrington that occasioanly win things. Rugby has made the quantum leap to connect to the aspirations of a modern nation. Our domestic football clearly has not.
the fact that you describe the AIPL proposals as an "incredibly modest step towards an improved standard of domestic soccer" suggests to me that you don't understand them.
Thats because the majority of posters believe either that the proposed AIPL is not a step forward for Irish football, or it hasn't been explained in enough detail.
It is not reasonable to assume that when virtually every poster in the eL section agrees that the system we have now needs to be improved. How to improve it is where we disagree.
But yet these people won't go along and help Irish clubs to make that success more attainable. What you're saying is "Get successful first, then we'll support you. But no way will we help you to get there."
No it doesn't. I watched Limerick FC beat St. Pats 2-0 to win the league cup final in 1991 - it was dramatic, sigificant, and inspiring. It meant more to me than Robbie Keane's last-minute equalisers against the Germans or the Spanish in 2002 (I was in Japan to watch the World Cup).
To suggest that it is more meaningful to be a supporter of Man. United than it is to be a supporter of Colchester for example, just because Man United win things is ludicrous. Size doesn't matter. Success is nice, but it doesn't matter. And in my opinion, anybody whose support for a club is linked to, or based on, the success of that club cannot consider themselves a real fan.
So in conclusion.......while you think eL football is useless and provincial, you'll do nothing to improve it, but if and when it improves to the point where it meets your criteria for "real football", you'll happily become a passionate fan.It's also why so many Irish supporters would never dream of supporting the EL. After the buzz and ecstacy of "real" football, it seems woefully provincial and desolate.
As long as the sun is shining that day.
Last edited by osarusan; 22/07/2008 at 2:37 PM.
So in conclusion.......while you think eL football is useless and provincial, you'll do nothing to improve it, but if and when it improves to the point where it meets your criteria for "real football", you'll happily become a passionate fan.
The awkward truth that you and other EL supporters find hard to accept is that "people like me" are the majority, and we know that simply by turning up to watch sub-standard football in sub-standard stadia will not make any difference whatsoever. I used to watch League of Ireland football when Rovers played at Milltown, but I never believed that my being there was doing anything to "help it improve."As my former advocate "greenforever" observed, the fatal weakness of the EL is demographics (together with the innate but perhaps understandable conservatism of its diehard fan base). The only way that domestic soccer in Ireland will ever improve is through radical structural change. Way, way, way beyond what I still believe to be the modest proposals set out in the AIPL model.
Third policeman, you're totally misinterpreting posts to fit your agenda im afraid.
1. Most/All league fans want change, crave change. League fans have constantly been throwing round the idea of an all-ireland league since i became a Bohs fan. Its not a new thing.
2. We dont want to have any of our clubs folded/merged/rebranded (delete as appropriate) - see my opinions in this thread.
3. change for the sake of change is pointless - even the most perfect business plan for an AIPL has no guarantee of being successful - because it presumes that Irish people will get off their arses to watch football. No chance imo.
4. the currently proposed AIPL structure should be and is being questioned.
5. a better and more inclusive proposal should be presented.
6. you seem to blame the clubs for the "soccer mad fans" of Ireland not attending - i blame the same people for the clubs not being successful. Therein lies the difference between the real soccer fan and the barstool premiership fan.
furthermore, grow a thicker skin - nothing on this thread amounts to abuse of you.
6. you seem to blame the clubs for the "soccer mad fans" of Ireland not attending - i blame the same people for the clubs not being successful. Therein lies the difference between the real soccer fan and the barstool premiership fan.
furthermore, grow a thicker skin - nothing on this thread amounts to abuse of you.[/quote]
Actually I am not taking the "abuse" personally. I totally understand and respect the passion of EL fans. I just happen to believe that the structure will never and can never improve to the point where our domestic soccer is helping us to improve the performance of our national team (which was the starting point of this thread). Also I think it is wrong to blame the people who dont support the EL for its plight. Their absence is not the principal reason for its poor state, and their attendance would do little to improve the position when you are dividing a small population by an unsustainably large number of clubs. Of course mergers and franchises would offend the sensibilities of longstanding supporters, and if we value heritage above commercial and competitive success then stick with status quo. However, this will inevitably mean that most Irish soccer fans will follow and support foreign club sides and most of our footballers will be exported to places where they are only rarely glimpsed by Irish supporters.
It is a scandal that football is the one economic sector where success requires emigration, and where large sections of our population still owe pssionate and often fanatical allegiance to British institutions.
Jesus this post is depressing. As osarusan points out you basically want guaranteed success before you'll hop on the bandwagon?
Best fans in the world, eh? Olé Olé Olé.....
although i agree with you in full CB - is it anything different to what we didnt already suspect?
Last edited by SkStu; 23/07/2008 at 9:20 PM.
OK. think we should agree to differ and consign this thread to a suitable resting place. Good result for Drogheda. Here's hoping they prove me wrong.
Third Policeman, I am out on a limb on this, but I think your posts were very well articulated and have a lot of merit in them.
In particular the two last lines of your second last post, point out that you want Irish clubs to garner the support of the barstoolers, but your points of view on how that can be achieved differs from those of us on here who don't understand why Irish people who don't support Irish football..
I think the reason your posts are unpopular is because there is SOME truth in them.
Clearly people are attracted to "bigger" and I agree with SaintCharlies that it is depressing.
My solution to the whole problem is that we(EL supporters) all put our money into a fund.We then give the money to a well know comedian and make sure he has a primetime slot on the Late,Late or Turbidy.
His instructions are to come up with a hilarious angry rant,which mercilesssly takes the **** out of the Irish guy who wear a Manchester UTD shirt to the pub, where he shouts abuse at the England team and would not go to an EL game if he had a gun pointed to his head("Irish football..would'nt watch that ol shoite").
Its important that out hired comedian is deeply offensive to his targets so it create s further publicity-imagine them all going nuts on liveline..it would be bliss-thus resulting in a national soul searching debate.
You may find the like of Kevin Myers repulsive, but he is very good at engineering a debate on his topic of choice.
At the m0ment, like Glen Close, we are being ignored.
Last edited by cheifo; 24/07/2008 at 12:01 AM.
Or the papers could start printing stories about what the players girlfriends are wearing or who is shagging who.....
Apparently this is all very relevant in today's footballing world
Just catching up with this thread, I'm a regular at EL games but, as chiefo points out there is some merit in what Third Policeman says. I don't think he necesserilly referring to winning trophies when he talks about people wanting something bigger, he's talking about the buzz you get in a massive crowd such as we get when following Ireland away (less so at home these days mind you). The fact is that that's not the same as wht you get at Bohs or Cork or wherever (much as it means a lot to me). It's harsh to describe call those people 'Event Junkies', it more comes down to the fact that people have grown up seeing football on TV in front of big crowds in big stadia and going to the likes of Tolka or even Dalyer won't cut it for them. It's a very moot point as to whether an all Ireland League would improve things although I'd cautiously be in favour.
Comparing it to the big rugby attendences is a bit off because the Heineken Cup is their equivilant of the Champions League (God I hate that name). However, I do think some sort of Celtic League might generate interest with national leagues feeding into it (like Conference North and South in England) might work but facilities would have to massively improve and even then how big would the crowds be, 10,000 or so? On the down side the idea of franchises and merging clubs in anathema to me. A 20 club league playing each other twice a season could be possible mind you which could give a number of clubs from here the opportunity to get involved. Still that gives problems in controlling relegation, you could hardly have the bottom team from each country going down if the bottom club from Scotland finished 10th for example. There's no easy solution here but berating people who don't want to go to watch a match in a delapidated stadium won't get us anywhere. We either accept the status quo or difficult decisions and choices have to be made.
I think it is fair to assume that both models could exist in some way. My previous comparisons to the rugby setup may have been misunderstood. What is to stop us having 4 provincial Football sides with the players registered to EL clubs and playing for their province. The Atlantic league idea would probably have to start as a cup competition similar to the Heineken Cup so the players could play in both. This would give the best players in the EL the chance to gain experience against clubs like Celtic, Rangers etc.. while also giving clubs the chance to blood youngsters while the stars are away. It would also give the smaller clubs in the EL the chance to compete in the league making it a more entertaining competition which would also surely help increase crowd numbers. The fact our best players would be playing more regularly at a higher level would also put an end to them leaving for British clubs for ridiculously low sums of money ie. Doyle, Long, O'Donovan, O'Callaghan, Byrne and so on. when a big club spend 50,000 on a player they are a lot less likely to concentrate on his development than if they spend 1,000,000 which would stop the likes of Byrne and O'Callaghan leaving and coming back without getting a fair chance of success which would increase the pool of talent for our national team. There are obviously flaws in the idea but none that could not be worked out over time.
Help something bit me!!!
Well argued point but the fact is that club rugby in the form of the all Ireland league has suffered hugely from the formation of the Celtic league in terms of profile and attendances. I still think that the way the league is going at present there's merit in the idea though, the vast majority of clubs can't sustain the wages they pay these days, a few 'marque' players having wages subsidised by a provincial set up competing in an expanded Setanta Cup including teams from other leagues (Scotland, Holland, maybe France etc.) could be worth considering.
That is both a flaw and a decent solution, the AIB league really began to suffer with the introduction of the Magners league though. It could not be expected to compete with 2 competitions of a higher quality. Despite the fact it suffers it is still where our Rugby players start out, it gives young blokes the chance to compete against guys who are coming to the end of their international careers which is still great experience. If the Atlantic league idea was just a cup competition I really dont think the EL would suffer too much, in fact I think more people would go to see a team with a provincial player in it just to see them play. This may sound far fetched but could you imagine a team of EL players actually winning a respected competition then returning to their clubs, fans would get to see those players for a cheaper price just as Leinster fans can on (admittedly very rare occasions) see O'Driscoll for free at Blackrock, more regularly for a reasonable price in the Magners League and then premier prices at Heineken cup or international level. The system brings the game to the masses.
Help something bit me!!!
http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/irishdoc.pdf
The full Platinum 1 AIL document is there for those interested.
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