Ireland 5-0 Turkey

[jmurphyc]

I haven't really payed too much attention to this thread but in regards to having just one big club instead of having a league I think it's a bad idea. For starters I don't think that Scotland and Wales would go for it and secondly it would mean dismantling clubs who have been around for a long time and have a passionate fan base. Doing that is wrong and would probably lead to most EL supporters falling out of love with Irish football. I would rather have a poor league than join with other countries (barring NI) to try to improve the league. Besides, I don't think it would make a difference. Real supporters will either go to a football match or they won't. There is nothing that suggests that Dubliners will suddenly start following an Irish team if there was only one. It would just end up the same as the EL eventually. I would say that currently everything is there to have a much better league and better prospects for Irish youngsters if people are willing to start supporting the EL. Changing the system won't make any difference as no matter what we do it would still be inferiority quality to the English league.

[TonyD]

, pro rata we could have 2 maybe 3 clubs based on population, which is exactly the way it is in Rugby.

All the arguments in the world will not change the simple fact we do not have the population to support a major league.

But who would these two or three clubs play against ? Do these proposals for a Celtic/Atlantic league exist except in the heads of some people in this country ? Is there any real indication that anyone is interested ?

Again I'll make the point that the rugby comparision is wide of the mark. There is a structure to European rugby which allows the Provincial team set up here to work. The same opportunity simply doesn't exist in football, and there is absolutely no sign that such a structure is on the horizon. You're undoubtedly right about the population required to support a major league, particularly if you're talking about competing with the Premiership, it's an impossible contest. As SKStu said, David v Goliath. However, I believe we can certainly support a small to medium sized professional league, with reasonable facilities, where we groom our own players, and the best of the crop, if they must move abroad, do so at a reasonable age (not as mere children) and for fees which help to keep the domestic game afloat. Average gates of 10k look along way off at the moment, I'll give you that. I'd certainly settle for half that within the next 5-10 years, with maybe an increase to 6-8k for big games (Derby games, league deciders, cup quarters/semis. I attended the Pats/Shels Cup quarter final 3 game saga ten years ago and there were easily 6-7 k in Tolka Park for both replays, so don't tell me it's not possible.)The point someone made earlier on about the junior game and the league is an excellent one. How can we hope to develop the game when everyone within it is not pulling in the same direction ? That's one of the first issues that needs to be addressed. Alongside that is the question of how do we attract more people to games. Third Policeman said earlier about the public wanting to see a better standard of football, but if it was that simple then why haven't attendences increased in line with the rise in standards of play in the last few seasons ? I firmly believe the answer is a lot to do with hype, for want of a better word. Our league is almost never hyped up, never talked up. Big league games get almost no kind of media build up at all. I stand by what I said earlier, attitude and perception. It's not treated as important, so people don't think it's important. I feel it's similar to having a winning attitude as a team - the first step is expecting to do better.

[irishfan86]

There is a latent footballing fan base in Ireland. A large percentage of the population play and watch football.

They would support a local team if the level was high enough.

A similar situation I can think of is Toronto, in Canada.

They had a team called the Toronto Lynx in the USL (tier below MLS), and usually only had a few thousand out to each match.

Once Toronto got an MLS franchise, the team suddenly had sold out their 20,000 seater stadium for the entire season.

This is season two, and every game so far has been sold out.

Did these "supporters" just come out of the woodwork?

No, these were football fans used to quality European football who didn't think the USL worth watching. Once a decent standard product was locally available, they lapped it up.

If Ireland joined a "Celtic League," or entered a Dublin team into a "European Super League" (if it ever comes to fruition), I am confident they'd have no trouble selling out a 30,000+ seat stadium every week.

[Dublincelt67]

The game of football has changed dramatically since 1990/91, it should be noted. What worked back then would be hopelessly naive now.

If I recall correctly, we played Turkey in the first and last games of the group, when they were less cohesive (we'd just come back from a bonding session in Italy - ahem), and then when they were out and the game mattered little to them.

They had also just appointed a central European coach (I keep thinking Ernest Happoel), and you could see a developement in their play between our home and away games with them.

I remember that they were pilloried for their passing triangles in the British and Irish media, for not going straight into attack - there has been a significant change in attitude there.

They were technically less adept than now all round the field, but then again, we weren't that mcuh better in that department.

It also should be noted, that the hunger to do well does seem to have diminished here - we were happy to get to our quarter final, and to be thought of as being plucky. Thanks to Attaturk, all those years back, the Turks believe that they should do well at whatever they commit to, so generally they tend to attempt to excel when they see that they do OK in something, thus driving on the development.

Of course, what they new, more religiously led government is an indication of will take a time to manifest.

Sepp Piontek I think was the manager for them back then

[Greenforever]

Sorry but thats bollcks. We can do better than 3,000 being a big attendance, even for our small population. There are 1.5 million people in Dublin. A large majority who would claim to be football fans. We'll never have a "major" league but we could be doing a damn sight better than we are now WITH the current model.

Well why aren't we then, please explain that

[Greenforever]

thats rubbish - the league used to have high average gates right up until the 60s. Check out some of the old pics of the derby games especially. Why couldnt it happen again? Its certainly not cloud cuckoo land. And your point about the Premiership is rubbish. Have a look where all the bigger clubs are. Each one of them has large catchment areas and the more rural ones have all the surrounding areas to work with also.

And in the 60s there was no colour tv, don't mind sky or Ryanair, the only way to travel to England for a match was on the Liverpool overnight ferry, and people did. Milltown was packed out regular but that is 40 / 50 years ago.

couldnt agree more but id like to see them do it with an Irish club before an English club. Surely you dont think that are youngsters are better off going to England at 15/16 as opposed to when they have learned their trade here and move at 19-25 for a decent fee and with a lot more maturity?

I know youngsters would be better completing their education here and not moving till they have done at leat the leaving cert, but when you say wait till they have learned their trade and move for a decent fee, do you really believe a 15 yr old kid is interested in the fact that if they sign for an EL club, that club may make a few million selling them in a few years??? Be real, the kid and the kids parents will grab the first million pound contract thrown their way, and would be mad not to.

Excuse the bold and italics but just to seperate my answer from original post!

[Greenforever]

But who would these two or three clubs play against ? Do these proposals for a Celtic/Atlantic league exist except in the heads of some people in this country ? Is there any real indication that anyone is interested ?

Again I'll make the point that the rugby comparision is wide of the mark. There is a structure to European rugby which allows the Provincial team set up here to work. The same opportunity simply doesn't exist in football, and there is absolutely no sign that such a structure is on the horizon. You're undoubtedly right about the population required to support a major league, particularly if you're talking about competing with the Premiership, it's an impossible contest.

Why is the comparison with Rugby wide off the mark?

The FAI run soccer here and could produce a policy to promote 2 - 4 major clubs.

Already we have the gang of 14 top European Clubs looking to run their own league.

An atlantic league based in the EU would probably get off the ground as EUFA would be powerless to stop it, and would probably sanction it to keep control of European Football.

The question is would the FAI go for such a league, im sure the fans would, I mean think of a league as follows

Dublin Utd
Cork FC
Celtic
Rangers
Ajax
PSV
Rosenborg
Anderlecht
FC Bruges
FC Copenhagen
Brondy
Cardiff City

The top 2 to qualify for the Champions League each year, they all play in their domestic FA Cup competition.

Would Celtic / Rangers walk away with the league? Would Rosenberg win it every year, waht about PSV or Ajax?

It would be a real competitive league, probably more so than any national league throughout Europe and would generate massive TV revenues.

I reckon that while most El fans would shudder at the taught, a sleeping fan base would be awoken and a Dublin Club would fill Lansdowne wekk in week out, as would Cork club attract 30K plus per game.

Will it happen? YES because as Sky and setanta slug it out they will need new leagues to broadcast and ones that will have more top matches than the premiership which is now really only a 4 team league.

[SkStu]

Why is the comparison with Rugby wide off the mark?

The FAI run soccer here and could produce a policy to promote 2 - 4 major clubs.

Already we have the gang of 14 top European Clubs looking to run their own league.

An atlantic league based in the EU would probably get off the ground as EUFA would be powerless to stop it, and would probably sanction it to keep control of European Football.

The question is would the FAI go for such a league, im sure the fans would, I mean think of a league as follows

Dublin Utd
Cork FC
Celtic
Rangers
Ajax
PSV
Rosenborg
Anderlecht
FC Bruges
FC Copenhagen
Brondy
Cardiff City

The top 2 to qualify for the Champions League each year, they all play in their domestic FA Cup competition.

Would Celtic / Rangers walk away with the league? Would Rosenberg win it every year, waht about PSV or Ajax?

It would be a real competitive league, probably more so than any national league throughout Europe and would generate massive TV revenues.

I reckon that while most El fans would shudder at the taught, a sleeping fan base would be awoken and a Dublin Club would fill Lansdowne wekk in week out, as would Cork club attract 30K plus per game.

Will it happen? YES because as Sky and setanta slug it out they will need new leagues to broadcast and ones that will have more top matches than the premiership which is now really only a 4 team league.

horrible thought, horrible post... and goes a long way to proving my point about Irish football "fans" being event junkies.

regarding your direct response to my post, your intial point was stating that we didnt have the population to support a largely professional league. My point showed that we had crowds often in excess of 10k in the past so it is not living in cloud cuckoo land to believe that such crowds are a possibility in the future provided there is a decent product on offer. Even with the Premiership next door. The key is selling the live soccer experience as opposed to the bottled, perfectly packaged TV product.

In response to your second paragraph, i think that if club soccer here thrives, the retention of youngsters (which you admit is to their and the clubs benefit) becomes a natural occurence. And the million pound contract is still there!!

[Greenforever]

horrible thought, horrible post... and goes a long way to proving my point about Irish football "fans" being event junkies.

regarding your direct response to my post, your intial point was stating that we didnt have the population to support a largely professional league. My point showed that we had crowds often in excess of 10k in the past so it is not living in cloud cuckoo land to believe that such crowds are a possibility in the future provided there is a decent product on offer. Even with the Premiership next door. The key is selling the live soccer experience as opposed to the bottled, perfectly packaged TV product.

In response to your second paragraph, i think that if club soccer here thrives, the retention of youngsters (which you admit is to their and the clubs benefit) becomes a natural occurence. And the million pound contract is still there!!

And with all respect you are living in the past, which is the problem with a lot of EL fans.

So Munster rugby fans are "event junkies"?? Carlsberg would call them the best event junkies in the world.

Am I an event junkie? I travel to ALL Ireland matches home and away BUT rarely go to EL matches because for my hard earned cash I demand better than what is on offer.

Am I an event junkie because I would like to support an Irish club in a strong European league?

IF the FAI cup final this year was to attract a full house of c20K to the RDS and the 2 competing clubs only had an average attendance of 2k between them, would you prefer the other 18K event junkies to stay away, or would it be different because it was the FAI cup final??

[Saint_Charlie]

Well why aren't we then, please explain that

If I knew that i'd let the clubs know...

My point is the current model would be fine if people supported it as opposed to doing away with everyone and setting up 3 or 4 franchise clubs around the country to compete in an Atlantic league.

[Greenforever]

If I knew that i'd let the clubs know...

My point is the current model would be fine if people supported it as opposed to doing away with everyone and setting up 3 or 4 franchise clubs around the country to compete in an Atlantic league.

And My point is that people DONT support it and you and I can do nothing about it, the EL clubs have tried to generate crowds, spent millions, and are still not getting anywhere, so we have to accept reality and that is the current model is not working and has not worked. Time to move on with a new outlook to offer the public something they will subscribe to.

[seanfhear]

And My point is that people DONT support it and you and I can do nothing about it, the EL clubs have tried to generate crowds, spent millions, and are still not getting anywhere, so we have to accept reality and that is the current model is not working and has not worked. Time to move on with a new outlook to offer the public something they will subscribe to.

slowly slowly catch the monkey .It is too much of a jump from where we are now maybe in the longer term you are correct.For now we need a 10/12 team ail then if the possibility of european league or an alternative we could consider other scenarios

[Greenforever]

slowly slowly catch the monkey .It is too much of a jump from where we are now maybe in the longer term you are correct.For now we need a 10/12 team ail then if the possibility of european league or an alternative we could consider other scenarios

Disagree, it didn't take Munster long to become a major force in Eurorpe when the IRFU abandoned the professional club set up.

If and I know it's a big IF an Atlantic league or similar was launcched, majpr sponsors would be falling over themselves to back an Irish club which would allow major signings at the start.

[TonyD]

Why is the comparison with Rugby wide off the mark?

I've already explained why. Completely diiferent structure. Plus the rubgy provinces play how many games a season ?

The FAI run soccer here and could produce a policy to promote 2 - 4 major clubs.

I'm sure they could - the question is should they. You clearly think so, I don't.

Already we have the gang of 14 top European Clubs looking to run their own league.

Are they ? I'm not so sure. I'd say they're fairly happy with the Champions league, as long as it guarantees them large wads of cash each year, which it does for most of them. The likes of Man U are also doing very nicely out of their domestic league I don't see any appetite among the big 14 to give that up.
An atlantic league based in the EU would probably get off the ground as EUFA would be powerless to stop it, and would probably sanction it to keep control of European Football.

But again I ask, who is talking about such a league, apart from few people in this country ? Is there any evidence of any interest whatsoever from another country in relation to such a league.

The question is would the FAI go for such a league, im sure the fans would, I mean think of a league as follows

Dublin Utd
Cork FC
Celtic
Rangers
Ajax
PSV
Rosenborg
Anderlecht
FC Bruges
FC Copenhagen
Brondy
Cardiff City

The top 2 to qualify for the Champions League each year, they all play in their domestic FA Cup competition.

Would Celtic / Rangers walk away with the league? Would Rosenberg win it every year, waht about PSV or Ajax?

It would be a real competitive league, probably more so than any national league throughout Europe and would generate massive TV revenues.

I reckon that while most El fans would shudder at the taught, a sleeping fan base would be awoken and a Dublin Club would fill Lansdowne wekk in week out, as would Cork club attract 30K plus per game.

So much wrong with that I hardly know where to start. Firstly, outside of Rangers(big maybe) and Celtic, are you seriously telling me that any of the above teams would draw a crowd of 30,000 plus ? Absolute nonsense. Brondby, Rosenborg and (If memory serves me right)Copenhagen have all played in European competition in Dublin in the last ten years, I don't think the combined attendences of those games would come anywhere near 30,000 I doubt if even games against Ajax or PSV would draw the crowds you're talking about. The Irish football public has a very specific notion of what teams are worth going out to see, and the list isn't very extensive. Everyone talks about Shelbourne v Deportivo, but even that game "only" attracted something like 24,000. And how many turned up to watch a top French side in the next round ? 7,000, wasn't it.? You're also assuming the clubs you list would be interested. Why should they be ? Masive prize money would be the only possible incentive. Such money will be drawn towards the bigger teams, the top tier of European football. Your list are second tier teams at best, and are unlikely to have TV audiences tuning in en masse when they could be watching Barca v Man U. The teams to play in their domestic cup competitions you say - but hold on, what domestic cup competition ? You've already killed off all the other clubs in this country, remember ?

Will it happen? YES because as Sky and setanta slug it out they will need new leagues to broadcast and ones that will have more top matches than the premiership which is now really only a 4 team league.

Sky and Setanta are quite happy to slug it out for Premiership rights, and Champions league. If they want other leagues to show, there's the Spanish (which Sky already show) German, Italian, French.

[seanfhear]

Disagree, it didn't take Munster long to become a major force in Eurorpe when the IRFU abandoned the professional club set up.

If and I know it's a big IF an Atlantic league or similar was launcched, majpr sponsors would be falling over themselves to back an Irish club which would allow major signings at the start.

its an interesting debate but how many teams are you going to end up with and how can it be brought about.Perhaps a major financier buys up certain clubs and amalgamates then against the wishes of their supporters.It would be exciting if you could have 4/5/6 clubs playing in a european league overnight.

[Greenforever]

its an interesting debate but how many teams are you going to end up with and how can it be brought about.Perhaps a major financier buys up certain clubs and amalgamates then against the wishes of their supporters.It would be exciting if you could have 4/5/6 clubs playing in a european league overnight.

More likely some organisation will put together a pan european league of countries outside the 5 major leagues, and get Sky / Setanta etc to bank roll it. The filthy dollar will rule, probably will be yanks to organise!

[Big Ears]

YOu've ignored the fact that to average 10k per game is like the premiership avaeraging 90k per game, it's cloud cuckoo land to think that this will happen with 10 or 12 premier league clubs.

Maybe, but it's also like Norway averaging 10K per game .


...........hold on a minute, Norway have a similar population to us, and they do average (over)10k per gamev


Plenty of people over there are attracted to the Premiership too but they still manage to get good numbers for their games .

The Norweigen league used to have an average similar to ours http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegi...gue#Attendance
Just 3,229 in 1986 and 4,242 in 1997, in 2007 10,438 .

Now there are several factors why Norway averages a much bigger crowd than the LOI, but none of those factors are impossible to replicate over here .
I suppose what is tougher for Irish clubs compared to Norwegian is the proximity of the FA Premier League and that Irish people are bombarded with advertisement for it through Sky Sports, which seemingly everyone has nowdays .


To compare the situation to how rugby was is no fair or accurate . Irish people never supported the English ruby clubs and European competition won't in its infancy if franchises were ever made . There is no guarentee that Irish people would want to follow these franchises . After all the main football suporters in Ireland(Eircom League fans) would feel alienated and avoid them like the plague . Meanwhile others may support the foreign sides against the Irish teams(it has been done many times before), particularly if Celtic was involved .

Many may choose to continue watching the Premier League and right off this new venture(and that's what it would have to be for franchises to come about) as 'second rate football' .


Dublin Utd
Cork FC
Celtic
Rangers
Ajax
PSV
Rosenborg
Anderlecht
FC Bruges
FC Copenhagen
Brondy
Cardiff City

Only 5 teams there would attract a crowd of over 20,000 for an Irish side .
Ajax, PSV, Celtic, Rangers and the other Irish side,infact that's not even likely if people are coming to see the other foreing teams not the Irish sides(which would be the case) .


Plus for something like that to happen the whole of football would have to be reworked . If an 'Atlantic league' happened then I assume the top teams in European football would form their own competition . This competition would be far more popular with Irish fans than the 'Atlantic league' and it's very possible you'd have more Irish fans travelling over for Manchester United v Barcelona than you'd get at Dublin UTD v Bronby, infact I doubt Dublin United v Bronby would get more of an attendance than current Dublin derbies do .

We're starting to develop our football properly in this country, we've a long road ahead but we're on the right path . Franchises are fairytale stuff , except that unlike fairytales they won't be capturing anyone's imagination .


Lets look at Norway a bit more and put logical measures in place .

[SkStu]

fantastic post Big Ears, agree 100%.

[irishultra]

Really good post.

[third policeman]

Yeah great post, lets look forward to the long hard road of becoming Norway.

I think you underestimate the distorting effect that British football has on our development. It's not just our fans who get seduced and distracted by the glamour of english football its also all our most promising players.

This is not the case with Norway or any of the other Scandiavian countries where it is only the leading players who emigrate and mainly do so after having established themselves in the domestic league. Crowds have improved in Norway because the product improved. It's going to be very very difficult to significantly improve the quality of the EL when even League 2 clubs in England are probably paying players more money. If you could magically repatriate every Irish player playing in The Championship, League 1, SPL and Premiership reserve sides then we could have quite a decent standard of football, but that cannot happen with the EL in its current format. The sad reality is that the current system will never reach a tipping point where it is possible to keep decent players, improve standards and therefore attract more people and more revenue.

I am not a fan of the Atlantic League model mainly because we would only have a couple of teams, and that would not help the development of the international team. The Celtic League would give us more teams (6 or so maybe from both parts of Ireland) and would be less traumatic in terms of the current EL structure. It would even be possible to integrate the new League with a domestic structure with promotion/ play offs etc. And contrary to what some have suggested it would offer a great deal to both Scotland and Wales. The SPL is in decline commercially and competitively and Swansea and Cardiff would jump at the prospect of gaining a place in what would be a potentially lucrative new structure. There would be a huge increase in TV revenue and the Irish clubs would be in much stronger position to hold onto the mass of footballing talent that this country produces.

My fear is that if we dont take the initiative in re-thinking the shape of Irish soccer, it will inevitably be moulded by commercial forces. the Atlantic League is not a romantic pipedream, its a powerfully attractive commercial opportunity.