applaud rangers players.

[Peadar]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
booing and death threats for Nreil Lennon

Being very much over the drink driving limit is more serious than being slightly over but that doesn't make either right or less illegal.

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Hmmm. I think the booing and death threats for Nreil Lennon who played for your lot for some reason was slightly more serious than a few huns, who play for the opposition, getting booed during 90 minutes of football....

The death threat was obviously much more serious, devastating for Lennon and his family, and something that will cause problems for NI fotball for years to come.

The booing of him? Unpleasant and sectarian, of course. Unique to Windsor? Sadly not, because as soon as one of your players signs for Rangers, he'll get barracked. It's obvious. And please, don't tell me no Republic international would ever sign for them,as some have. It's unrealistic and actually quite pious. Consider,

• you haven't got many players good enough to sign for Bayern Munich. But going to Rangers guarantees them European football,quite likely in the CL
• it's more than 15 years since Rangers stopped formally excluding Catholic players. For a footballer in his mid-20s, or more importantly his agent, that's ancient history
• isn't it a little presumptious to assume Robbie Keane (or whoever) will be swayed by the media? For every article in the Irish rags slagging off the signing, there's be two in the Scottish and English lauding its bravery. And for all we know he might treat them all with the proverbial pinch

And you can't really respond to the charge of sectarianism with 'the North are worse'. Even if we are- which on the evidence of the last three or games I've seen I'd dispute- it's not much of an answer, is it?

[Duncan Gardner]

No disrespect but you do half love to waffle.

None taken- though my 10 posts compared to your 350 suggest differently

As I said, threatening to kill someone is clearly worse than booing them at a football match. And you have a point that barracking your own players is usually worse than directing it at the other team. But, since the booing of Lennon was clearly caused by his signing for Celtic, and as I explained a RoI player joining Rangers is quite likely, there really isn't much mileage in your holier-than-thou attitude. In both cases, the booing is prompted by sectarianism. One isn't less bad than the other- they are equivalent.

BTW, I see you're a reader of the ok2boo site. I've written to it twice- saying more or less as above- but neither appeared on the comments page. I know it's nothing personal- hardly anything at all has appeared for a fortnight- but can you explain generally? Have the organisers reached some deal with Fran Rooney, lost interest or what?

[nlgbbbblth]

correct me if I'm wrong

Lennon got one death threat I think
a telephone call -

what we do to the Rangers players and what happened to Lennon are as bad as each other

have to agree with Duncan - the old firm exploit the political/sectarian angle and
neither side is worthy of support

and
: a question

are we the only country that people wear FOREIGN club jersies to matches involving the national team.

Celtic shirts should be banned from Lansdowne.
anyone who wears one is a c u n t.

[nlgbbbblth]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
Celtic shirts should be banned from Lansdowne.
anyone who wears one is a c u n t.

and you, Silvio Dante, are the biggest c u n t of all.

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
In both cases, the booing is prompted by sectarianism. One isn't less bad than the other- they are equivalent.

No, they're not. First of all, if you can't see the difference between booing the opposition and making them feel unwelcome and booing your own players and making them feel welcome you should just stop posting here really, I think it's more likely you're just ignoreing the obvious there.

Secondly, the booing of Rangers player isn't sectarian. Yes, it is wrong and I disagree with it, but releigion based it isn't. Those players play (Or used to play) for a club which the majority of the people in the crowd dislike and so they dislike those players, it is no different to the booing of Jaap Stam at the Holland match. The fact there is religion based haterid between both clubs is a well documented yet completley irrelevent fact when it comes to this. They're not booing the players because they're of any relgion or race, they're booing them because they don't like the club they play for, that's the start and end of it.

I've used the example of Stam being booed, I'd love for someone to explain to me the difference, I've had this discussion with a few people and as of yet nobody has been nice enough to do that for me.

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
what we do to the Rangers players and what happened to Lennon are as bad as each other

Yes, great point that man.

Booing your own players and forcing them to retire through threatening to kill them is just as bad as booing the opposition players, something which is as common as sand on a beach.

Use your head for christs sake, fair enough if you're against it, but that's an utter pile of rubbish to be completley fair to you.

[tiktok]

Originally posted by Slash/ED
Secondly, the booing of Rangers player isn't sectarian. Yes, it is wrong and I disagree with it, but releigion based it isn't. Those players play (Or used to play) for a club which the majority of the people in the crowd dislike and so they dislike those players, it is no different to the booing of Jaap Stam at the Holland match. The fact there is religion based haterid between both clubs is a well documented yet completley irrelevent fact when it comes to this. They're not booing the players because they're of any relgion or race, they're booing them because they don't like the club they play for, that's the start and end of it.

i'll accept that there a a large propartion of the celtic fans who share your view of what went on, but i've witnessed first hand guys in celtic shirts shouting 'orange b@st@rd' and 'hun'. IMO this casts it in a sectarian issue.

silvio has said before that Hun isn't neccessarily a racist/religious taunt, but to all intents and purposes Hun and Tim has it's roots in mid 20th century Glasgow where they were derogatory terms for protestant and catholic respectively, not exclusively used in football terraces.

'orange' has obvious sectarian implications.

i understand what you're saying in your post, i just think that as much as we can't tarnish all celtic fans with the sectarian brush, there are many who deserve the title. and rightly or wrongly, this is how the average guy on the street is going to view the booing.

[A face]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
and you, Silvio Dante, are the biggest c u n t of all.

you have got to hand it to the lad though, you are a complete cúnt Silvio

Uno Stronzo, mi amico

[IrishSoccerJedi]

You won't catch this Celtic fan cheering on any one of the huns. However, I am also civilized enough to only boo the team thats trying to score on the Irish!

HAIL HAIL!

[Duncan Gardner]

Silvio. Roy Keane may well be booed by Scousers if Ireland play England at Anfield. So what? Liverpool and Manchester United don't have a sectarian attitude to conflict in Northern Ireland. Celtic and Rangers do. You cannot equate the two.

I accept your two facts, of course (broadly that Celtic are popular in the RoI and Rangers aren't). But I draw different conclusions. Your mates may think they aren't sectarian, but I'm afraid they are, for the reasons I gave.

The word sectarianism originally referred purely to religion. But in NI it obviously has a wider meaning, because the conflict is basically about nationality. Religion, even if nominal, does identify most of those living there, but not all. The religion or nationality of Arveladze or Lovenkrands doesn't matter, of course: only their association with Rangers does.

Slash Ed. I've already explained my attitude to the booing of your own team vis a vis the opposition. It's on the previous page and I invite you to read it. Until then- until you respond to what others say, generally- please don't ask them to stop posting.

The difference re Jaap Stam is that neither he nor anyone he's played for is institutionally sectarian the way Celtic and Rangers are. It's very simple.

[Greenbod]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Silvio. Roy Keane may well be booed by Scousers if Ireland play England at Anfield. So what? Liverpool and Manchester United don't have a sectarian attitude to conflict in Northern Ireland. Celtic and Rangers do. You cannot equate the two.

I accept your two facts, of course (broadly that Celtic are popular in the RoI and Rangers aren't). But I draw different conclusions. Your mates may think they aren't sectarian, but I'm afraid they are, for the reasons I gave.

The word sectarianism originally referred purely to religion. But in NI it obviously has a wider meaning, because the conflict is basically about nationality. Religion, even if nominal, does identify most of those living there, but not all. The religion or nationality of Arveladze or Lovenkrands doesn't matter, of course: only their association with Rangers does.

Slash Ed. I've already explained my attitude to the booing of your own team vis a vis the opposition. It's on the previous page and I invite you to read it. Until then- until you respond to what others say, generally- please don't ask them to stop posting.

The difference re Jaap Stam is that neither he nor anyone he's played for is institutionally sectarian the way Celtic and Rangers are. It's very simple.

Duncan, can you explain why you believe Celtic as a club is "institutionally" sectarian?

[Duncan Gardner]

Celtic and Rangers are institutionally sectarian because they tolerate and reinforce sectarian attitudes held by their supporters. Every Old Firm game (and that's five or six most seasons) is a chance for the bigots on both sides to cheer on nationalist and unionist paramilitaries, to present themselves as a Glaswegian miniature version of the NI conflict, and, given the large travelling support from all over Ireland, to worsen it there also. Both clubs do essentially nothing to prevent any of this (ie by ejecting anyone openly boasting their membership of illegal organisations, or even asking fans not to sing party songs). The merchandising of both clubs furthers this both directly (Rangers' crass orange shirts) and a little more subtly (Celtic's deliberate efforts, in England/Ireland and America/Australia to market themselves as an 'Irish' club).

For me, they're as bad as one another. 20 years ago, Rangers were worse; but they dropped the bar on Catholic players. The problem is, neither club has really moved on in this respect since.

You might say the Edinburgh and Dundee clubs are as bad, at the individual match level. Well, no. Hearts and United have nothing to gain from any close link to the NI issue, so it's not a big deal there. Rangers and Celtic think they do, and so exploit it. A shame really, because both clubs have enough support and the potential to improve in UEFA competitions, to make this unnecessary.

Obviously I don't like either of them, and it goes beyond sectarianism. Both have been influential in weakening the Scottish League (constantly threatening to leave it, buying everyone else's best players to their reserve teams, insisting on white elephant facilities being built for them at other grounds). But for all that, I accept a large majority of Irish fans support one or the other. Perhaps in time those people can encourage them to move beyond the stereotype. Ignoring them at RoI and NI internationals would be a big help.

PS If I don't reply until tomorrow, it's simply because I expect a busy afternoon at work

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The difference re Jaap Stam is that neither he nor anyone he's played for is institutionally sectarian the way Celtic and Rangers are. It's very simple.

Absolute rubbish, how is one booing worse then the other? You're basically putting words in the mouths of those who do it, it was done for exactly the same reasons, if Stam had of, instead of signing for Lazio decided to flush his career down the toilet and sign for Rangers, would the booing of him by the same people for the same reasons now become sectarian? Celtic and Rangers may have a relgious history but that doesn't make someone hating one of their players a religious thing. Are you really, seriously suggesting they booed those players based on their religion, when, as an example, Reyna is as catholic as Celtic claim to be? As I said, the fact that religion is involved between the two clubs bears absolutley no significance here whatsoever to the majority

However, those shouting orange *******s as someone stated above is different, there's always a few mindless idiots at every ground.

I'd also like to say I haven't and wont boo someone based on their clubs, as I don't agree with bringing club rivalrys into Lansedown and I'm not a Celtic fan but that's another issue, however if it puts the opposition off then it can only be a good thing.

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
But in NI it obviously has a wider meaning, because the conflict is basically about nationality. Religion, even if nominal, does identify most of those living there, but not all. The religion or nationality of Arveladze or Lovenkrands doesn't matter, of course: only their association with Rangers does."

But this isn't Northern Ireland. If the religion or nationality of the players doesn't come into the equation then it's not sectarian, simple as that. It's simply bringing club rivalrys into international matches, something I don't agree with but don't find particularly offencive or harmfull.

[gspain]

I was at the Holland match and Stam was booed along with Kluivert and the others as part of rivalry. ie making an opposing sid efeel unwelcome. Figo was booed every time he touched the ball in the Portuguese match.

The booing and sectarian abuse of Rangers players is totally different and anyway should have nothing to do with us - who cares which British team is th ebest in Glasgow.

As for Celtic and Rangers being sectarian - you can make arguments that both are and are not but anyone trying to claim "The huns/tims are a bynch of bigots and we're non sectarian" just makes me laugh.

They certainly work very well together to maximise both clubs revenues - and play the green/orange card. The term "Old firm" was coined in 1904 to reflect this. Not much has changed.

I was in Celtic Park in 1991 for Packie's testimonial and there were only a handful of Irish fans at the game (either supporting us or the British club side). The band played Sean South and some other IRA song I'd never heard of.

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by gspain
I was at the Holland match and Stam was booed along with Kluivert and the others as part of rivalry. ie making an opposing sid efeel unwelcome. Figo was booed every time he touched the ball in the Portuguese match.

How is that different to booing opponents Rangers players? It's trying to upset them and put them off their game, and if memory serves not one has played well against us in recent times anyway.

If Stam, Figo, Kluivert and the others played for Rangers does that suddenly become sectarian abuse and not just trying to make them feel unwelcome? Because if either of those played for Rangers at the time, that's exactly what people would be claiming.

[gustavo]

what annoys me about the booing is that those celtic fans see it as an extension of them being celtic supporters at lansdowne road that they are entitiled to boo the rangers players. they blur the lines of beinhg a celtic supporter and an ireland supporter

[tiktok]

Conor and Silvio.....
you're like the two boys in the balcony on the muppet show.

the act is winding down, cut to the two boys, wisecracks and hilarity ensue. i think you should be given your own 'odd couple' show. do you sit at your computers waiting for the other to post so you can jump on them (btw: that's figuratively conor )????

[Duncan Gardner]

The religion or nationality of Arveladze or Lovenkrands doesn't matter, of course: only their association with Rangers does

Are you really, seriously suggesting they booed those players based on their religion, when, as an example, Reyna is as catholic as Celtic claim to be?

The above should answer your question, Slash/Ed. Er,I'm suggesting that they booed them based purely on their current/ previous employer. If Liverpool/ ManU/other British/ European club sides, that's one thing. I'm not that bothered about it, though I can see that many RoI fans don't come to Lansdowne to hear banter about foreign club teams.

If it's about Celtic and Rangers, then that's different. Either, as you say, Northern Ireland's a faraway place apart and you want little to do with its problems; or it's the last phase of the struggle between Britain and Ireland, largely and deliberately encouraged by Rangers and Celtic. If you want the conflict kept at arms' length, your international matches are a good place to start...

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The above should answer your question, Slash/Ed. Er,I'm suggesting that they booed them based purely on their current/ previous employer. If Liverpool/ ManU/other British/ European club sides, that's one thing. I'm not that bothered about it, though I can see that many RoI fans don't come to Lansdowne to hear banter about foreign club teams.

If it's about Celtic and Rangers, then that's different. Either, as you say, Northern Ireland's a faraway place apart and you want little to do with its problems; or it's the last phase of the struggle between Britain and Ireland, largely and deliberately encouraged by Rangers and Celtic. If you want the conflict kept at arms' length, your international matches are a good place to start...

I only read that bit after

How are booing Rangers and Celtic different just because of peoples attitude in a completley foreign country? Fair enough, you have issues with their policys, but I'm sorry, that's completley unrelated to what's going on at Lansedown. They're booing them as they don't like them because they play/played for another country, like I asked, if Stam signed for Rangers not Lazio would booing that suddenly be wrong? Would the mind set of the people doing it and the message they're conveying suddenly have become completley different?

I'm sorry, you're reading something into it that simply isn't there then getting worked up over it.