Italy

**ken foree** · 18/06/2008, 10:30 AM

actually ciaran one more minor thing - i don't think the italians have deviated that much from their style of play at the world cup, a narrowish midfield three and pirlo looking for a lone striker with a quick, precise ball over the top. he hit toni with 2 or 3 of these in the first half yesterday. so stopping pirlo, you're correct there, is paramount but in your previous post alluded to their flank play which i think is fairly non-existent (at least on last night's evidence).

**KildareRed** · 18/06/2008, 10:56 AM

We dont play Italy for 10 months.

**youngirish** · 18/06/2008, 11:10 AM

Luca Toni is shockingly slow. I didn't realise how slow until last night.

Did anyone see him running for a ball when no-one appeared to be close to him and Evra got back and beat him to it? Evra appeared to be running at about twice Toni's speed.

With the lack of pace in our defence I reckon we can more easily handle the likes of the Italian forward line than the Dutch, French, Spanish or German.

**Dr. Ogba** · 18/06/2008, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Donadoni's ok. Certainly not in the league of someone like Domenech, seems to have players behind him as well. I noticed Gattuso spraying him with water at the end of the game, always a good sign that the players and manager have a good relationship.

to be honest I think Gattuso would be the last person I would go to for character assessment being the little runt that he is, but I take your point...

**Manc Irish Wolf** · 18/06/2008, 11:46 AM

Definitely think that it is a blessing if Donadoni stays - especially with Lippi apparently waiting in the wings.

Luca Toni is no great shakes - effective (or just big), but very cumbersome & unbelieveably slow and certainly nothing that Dunney couldn't handle (although Del Piero could be more of an issue).

Pirlo is definitely the key - got to be up there for best passer of the ball in the world - but if Carsley sat on him all game we'd have a good chance.

Whereas, their defence isn't all that. Matterazzi first choice? and the fullbacks don't seem as effective as they were.

Personally think that Holland's fluid 4-2-3-1 team are the benchmark. Their defence & centremidfield is not remarkably better than ours. If Old Trap gets a strong defensive base with a tight defensive 6 (with Steven Reid & Carsley sitting) with a good interlinking attacking front four - probably A Reid, McGeady, Duff & Keane up top at the moment - there is no reason why we can't do the job.

**back of the net** · 18/06/2008, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Manc Irish Wolf

Definitely think that it is a blessing if Donadoni stays - especially with Lippi apparently waiting in the wings.

Luca Toni is no great shakes - effective (or just big), but very cumbersome & unbelieveably slow and certainly nothing that Dunney couldn't handle (although Del Piero could be more of an issue).

Pirlo is definitely the key - got to be up there for best passer of the ball in the world - but if Carsley sat on him all game we'd have a good chance.

Whereas, their defence isn't all that. Matterazzi first choice? and the fullbacks don't seem as effective as they were.

Personally think that Holland's fluid 4-2-3-1 team are the benchmark. Their defence & centremidfield is not remarkably better than ours. If Old Trap gets a strong defensive base with a tight defensive 6 (with Steven Reid & Carsley sitting) with a good interlinking attacking front four - probably A Reid, McGeady, Duff & Keane up top at the moment - there is no reason why we can't do the job.

completely agree

esp with ur point on the dutch formation

**back of the net** · 18/06/2008, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

Not bad,

He didn't see that in the stars

i know its getting away from the point ere

but did any1 see this bout domenench after the defeat last nite - dear god

http://www.goal.com/en-us/Articolo.a...enutoId=741012

and we thought stan was bad!!!

**cavan_fan** · 18/06/2008, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ciaran

The criticism on Toni is also unfair. Let's keep in mind that creating chances for yourself is half the battle. He's positioning himself very well, he's winning balls in the air well and the only part that's lacking is his finishing. It's certainly not fair to call him a clown when he's doing the hard part very well and just not getting an end product. In contrast Anelka wasn't seen in the game, while Toni was constantly pushing the line, constantly out leaping players and winning his side a penalty. Anelka seemed to be waiting for someone to do the work for him rather than taking on that responsibility himself.

The sound you hear is furious back pedalling.

The arugument from a stirker that at least they were creating chances is the eternal refuge of the inept. Chances were created via some good balls into the box and the inability of the French to defend. Toni is there for 2 things, to hold the ball up whcih he does reasonably well but then so does Clinton Morisson and to score where he is Championship level. To compare him to Anelka is ridiculopus. Anelka is not a target man, came on with the game over and 15 minutes left and was playing on a sh*t team.

**irishultra** · 18/06/2008, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Manc Irish Wolf

Definitely think that it is a blessing if Donadoni stays - especially with Lippi apparently waiting in the wings.

Luca Toni is no great shakes - effective (or just big), but very cumbersome & unbelieveably slow and certainly nothing that Dunney couldn't handle (although Del Piero could be more of an issue).

Pirlo is definitely the key - got to be up there for best passer of the ball in the world - but if Carsley sat on him all game we'd have a good chance.

Whereas, their defence isn't all that. Matterazzi first choice? and the fullbacks don't seem as effective as they were.

Personally think that Holland's fluid 4-2-3-1 team are the benchmark. Their defence & centremidfield is not remarkably better than ours. If Old Trap gets a strong defensive base with a tight defensive 6 (with Steven Reid & Carsley sitting) with a good interlinking attacking front four - probably A Reid, McGeady, Duff & Keane up top at the moment - there is no reason why we can't do the job.

You mean the Engelaar chap and De Jong? Completely agree.

You're actually so right. Bhoularouz was a bit of a flop and at club level looks a bit of a donkey(He went to a Sevilla and didn't get much action)

Obviously I can't comment on the Mathijsen(Don't see enough of him) but he can't be better than Dunne. I'm not going to say Dunne is better but it wouldn't be unthinkable that he is isn't a good bit better.

So yeah while they probably have a slightly better first 7, it isn't like we're worlds a part.

I actually think a good few of our players would make their squad though. Robbie Keane is as far as I'm concerned a better player than Kuyt. Given would make the team now that VDS is retiring. Dunne probably would if your man from Blackburn can.

**cavan_fan** · 18/06/2008, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Manc Irish Wolf

Definitely think that it is a blessing if Donadoni stays - especially with Lippi apparently waiting in the wings.

Luca Toni is no great shakes - effective (or just big), but very cumbersome & unbelieveably slow and certainly nothing that Dunney couldn't handle (although Del Piero could be more of an issue).

Pirlo is definitely the key - got to be up there for best passer of the ball in the world - but if Carsley sat on him all game we'd have a good chance.

Whereas, their defence isn't all that. Matterazzi first choice? and the fullbacks don't seem as effective as they were.

Personally think that Holland's fluid 4-2-3-1 team are the benchmark. Their defence & centremidfield is not remarkably better than ours. If Old Trap gets a strong defensive base with a tight defensive 6 (with Steven Reid & Carsley sitting) with a good interlinking attacking front four - probably A Reid, McGeady, Duff & Keane up top at the moment - there is no reason why we can't do the job.

Much to ponder for the Italians. I suspect if Lippi is willing to come back then Donadoni will be gone almost irrespective of how far they go. IN any case they have a lot of work to do. Post World Cup they tried to freshen the team up a little but they then started the tournament with the old guard and are now drifting away form this. Looking at the units.

In goals they have a top goalie and unless injured are OK for a few years.

There appears no clear view on the defence. Obviously Cannavaro coming back will help but I suspect we've seen the last of Materazzi and after that it seems a lot of converted full backs etc.

In Midfield they are inheriting the AC Milan issue of having a lot of similar players. The triumvarate of Pirlo, Amrosini and Gattuso differ in their tackling and passing abilities but are a bit interchangeable. It's also arguable that they dont need all three of them.

The attacking players they have are also a bit staid. If you're going to play 3 in central midfield then you either have 2 up front and a totti like player behind (and he doesnt sound like he's coming back and Del Piero is surely going to retire) or you go the Chelsea way and have 2 winger/strikers alongside one big lad. I'm not sure I've seen these 2 players from then and Toni is no Drogba. I'd be tempted to try Toni and Cassano with someone (Pirlo???) behind them.

The other option for them is to say goodbye to most of this generation and bring in the U21's. I wonder if they feel cocky enough about the group that they might go down this line???