Are we any good?

[cheifo]

We have very average players who can't retain the ball for any lenght of time.
Hopefully Trap can make us stronger than the sum of our parts.
Also we need a couple of younger players to make big strides in their game and maybe take us up a notch.

[carloz]

Other than Eduardo, what other players Croatian players play for top sides?

In their squad they have players from Spartak Moscow, Werber Bremen, Shakhtar Donetsk, Panathinaikos, Monaco, Borussia Dortmund and Schalke 04. All talented European teams. It is more of a benefit to have squad players from teams like that than your Sunderlands, Readings and Man Citys.

Personally i think we are good and that we are around the cusp of the top 16 in the world. I think a lot of our problem is psycological. We had a very good chance to cement out stature as a first seed after World Cup 2002. We were first seeds for the 2004 European Championships and were in relativly easy group with Switzerland and Russia as competition. We blew it then and as a result of that we generally are in difficult groups which has an effect. I think we have a good honest squad and if they can be organised and disciplined, and be able to have good game plans particularly for away games then we have a good quality squad

[Stuttgart88]

The addition of "are any of them world class" is irrelevant and unnecessary I don’t feel is irrelevant or indeed unnecessary the reason behind this is that every squad needs a leader someone who leads by example we don’t have that at the moment there is no spark none for younger players to look at as a talented role model, who can change the game with skill and passion (Beckham against Greece for example) my point is we don’t have and don’t appear to have any of these players on the horizon. I would be as open as saying a role model for Irish football. We have a team of grafters with varying levels of skill and the depth as you point out in central midfield is very worrying as you point out with the exception of the Reid’s the next choice appears to be Whelan and Miller and they are just not good enough in comparison to the teams we need to be dominating in matches.

In citing Beckham you inadvertently referred to Greece. No world class players, European Champions & 31 points out of 35 in qualification for Euro 2008. Organised and superb from set pieces. They beat Portugal twice in Portugal with a midfielder, Zagorakis, who struggled at Leicester.

It backs up my belief that you don't need great players to be a great team though I fully accept that in terms of technique and ball retention we're way below standard - it's all down to midfield. I remember watching Blackburn at The Emirates last season. Arsenal started at an amazing pace and Steven Reid looked lost. But after 15 mins or so Blackburn took charge and were unlucky not to equalise Senderos' early goal. Steven Reid was instrumental in this comeback, sitting deep, collecting and distributing the ball all evening. He and Andy Reid have what it takes between them to compete physically, use the ball cleverly and keep it rolling. Not unlike how Joe Gamble plays for Cork City and not unlike how Darren Potter did in the USA and in Denmark. That gives me belief that we can do it, and maybe adding another body into midfield allowing Andy Reid to play further forward may suit us well. But, as said above, I'll be amazed if Steven Reid is available for half our games and both Reids together for much more than a third of them.

[mark12345]

Great to see the general discoruse on this subject. First time ever (at least that I've seen on a web site) that people are talking about the real reasons we are a sub standard team.

For years people used go on about this player should be playing or that player is not worth his place, or it's the manager's fault. Bottom line is - the currency of modern day football is fluent and fluid passing and we are bankrupt in that department (must admit we've shown flashes of it...in the 0-0 draw in Paris under Kerr and home to Israel in the same campaign).

We haven't been able to put two pases together because we are uncomfortable on the ball, and we're uncomfortable because our technical ability (ie. the ability to hold onto possession despite having someone breathing down our neck) is badly lacking.

It becomes a vicious circle.

Having said all that I think that if anyone can restore our belief and bring out the little bit of techincal ability that we have, it's Giovanni Trapattoni.

[jmurphyc]

Having said all that I think that if anyone can restore our belief and bring out the little bit of techincal ability that we have, it's Giovanni Trapattoni.

Good post. The main reasons (IMO) behind the majority of our players lacking technical ability is down to the way their coached at a young age and the fact that all of our players play in Britain which is lagging behind continental Europe in this department. Although this has been discussed an awful lot and these two reasons are generally the ones that most people believe in.

In terms of how we can improve the technical side to our game right now, a fit Andy Reid will do wonders for us. If we get most of our play going through him I have no doubt that we'll look a lot better in this regard. Getting the best out of him will be absolutely crucial to our chances of qualifying.

[irishbaz]

The Steven Reid issue is another interesting one as for the last 6-7 games of the season he has ben playing at right back for blackburn with Brett Emerton and Vogel being preferred to him it was slightly worrying and now hughes has gone hopefully the next blackburn manager will play him in the central midfield birth he has put his mark on! This would improve our chances in the upcomming games if he is getting time at club level at that position

[irishfan86]

The Steven Reid issue is another interesting one as for the last 6-7 games of the season he has ben playing at right back for blackburn with Brett Emerton and Vogel being preferred to him it was slightly worrying and now hughes has gone hopefully the next blackburn manager will play him in the central midfield birth he has put his mark on! This would improve our chances in the upcomming games if he is getting time at club level at that position

He played the majority of this season in the centre except for a couple of matches.

[irishbaz]

Hughes preferred him in that position the last three home matches he played him at right back but it didnt make any sense to me at all, If Hiughes had still been there he could have found himself as a make shift right back

[ShamrockIreland]

We have very average players who can't retain the ball for any lenght of time.
Hopefully Trap can make us stronger than the sum of our parts.
Also we need a couple of younger players to make big strides in their game and maybe take us up a notch.

I agree with this but some of our players are better than average when they want to play ie Duff, Keane,A.Reid,McGeady. As for the young players heres hoping. I do believe Trap will have us working to his system but whether he can change the mindset of certain players who just lose the ball all the time I'm not so sure. It has been worrying since after the World Cup 02 how much ball we give away and the loss/retirement of decent midfielders like Matt Holland,Kinsella and RK has added to that. How can we expect the ageing Carsley to retain and distribute the ball when he hasn't really had a decent sidekick to play alongside him(S.Reid and A.Reid are always injured) is beyond me. Still lets hope some of the young players show some attitude

[Manc Irish Wolf]

What's with the negativity? At the end of the day we only lost by 1-0 on aggregate by one deflected goal to the Euro Champions favourites and 2-1 to a team who are a top 8 team (which should have been 2-2 if it hadn't been for a last minute miss). All this while under the stewardship of a weak inexperienced manager. Having the teams competing so far, there is no way that we are any less than Poland, Switzerland, Austria and I dare say another handful of teams in the competition.

We finally have a world class manager, have blooded youngsters in the previous campaign such as Doyle, McShane, McGeady & Keogh and still have players with the quality of Garvan, Scannell and O'Dea to come through. Most importantly we have Stephen Reid back who will be the fulcrum of our midfield. These players may not be the best players in the world on paper, however I like to to think the thing that sets aside our teams in the past is the passion for the shirt, which id combined with a disciplined strategy can be more effective than anything, as Greece proved in the last Euros.

Similarly, players like Cascarino, Kelly, McAteer, Babb, McLoughlin, Coyne etc. were nowhere near as strong on paper as the competing teams. However, if we can mould the team into a tight system, have belief and more importantly get behind the team (a factor that has diminished in recent years) we can beat anyone.

Keep the faith.

[Paddy Garcia]

We have very average players who can't retain the ball for any lenght of time.
Hopefully Trap can make us stronger than the sum of our parts.
Also we need a couple of younger players to make big strides in their game and maybe take us up a notch.

Dead on - I agree with this. And I think Mark 12345 has it right also.

During our more successful years it seemed that every couple of years one or two players emerged to challenge for a place in the starting line up or to strengthen the squad. Sometimes it was three like Babb, McAteer & Kelly. They provided a real boost at the time. Others emerged to make a contribution over a shorter period like Kernaghan who played a huge partin our qualification for the USA (for some stupid reason he is unpopular on this forum).

However it has been a very very lean 5 years in this respect. McGeady offers much hope, but as far as first team breakthroughs go there has been little/nothing else of genuine quality. Worse we are relying on some players who can't even get near the bench at their clubs - this was never the case when we had success in the past & it won't do for the future either.

[tricky_colour]

Dead on - I agree with this. And I think Mark 12345 has it right also.

During our more successful years it seemed that every couple of years one or two players emerged to challenge for a place in the starting line up or to strengthen the squad. Sometimes it was three like Babb, McAteer & Kelly. They provided a real boost at the time. Others emerged to make a contribution over a shorter period like Kernaghan who played a huge partin our qualification for the USA (for some stupid reason he is unpopular on this forum).

However it has been a very very lean 5 years in this respect. McGeady offers much hope, but as far as first team breakthroughs go there has been little/nothing else of genuine quality. Worse we are relying on some players who can't even get near the bench at their clubs - this was never the case when we had success in the past & it won't do for the future either.

The standard in the Premiership is way higher now than it was in the days of Babb, McAteer & Kelly. Would they get a game today?

[tetsujin1979]

The standard in the Premiership is way higher now than it was in the days of Babb, McAteer & Kelly. Would they get a game today?

Probably not at Liverpool, but you could see them playing in one of the second tier sides, someone like Portsmouth, Blackburn, Everton, etc

[Gather round]

Its quite laughable to see teams like the North ahead of us in the rankings, when you compare the two sides. It would be like comparing Leeds to Everton

It wouldn't really, if you chose those two deliberately. We had only one regular playing below English D2 level- Clingan at Forest. Our squad of championship hoofers were able to raise their game against the stronger sides. Not just for a couple of cup-ties, but in a 12 game league.

What's with the negativity? At the end of the day we only lost by 1-0 on aggregate by one deflected goal to the Euro Champions favourites and 2-1 to a team who are a top 8 team (which should have been 2-2 if it hadn't been for a last minute miss). All this while under the stewardship of a weak inexperienced manager

You finished 10 points behind the qualifiers in your group. Your two previous managers (less weak, more experienced?) also failed in the two previous series. Ye haven't beaten a higher ranked country in a qualifier since 2001.

Personally i think we are good and that we are around the cusp of the top 16 in the world

Apart from the current finalists, nine other teams outpointed you in the qualifiers. You're barely on the cusp of the top 25 in Europe.

[Paddy Garcia]

Hard to argue with that to be honest!

[SkStu]

It wouldn't really, if you chose those two deliberately. We had only one regular playing below English D2 level- Clingan at Forest. Our squad of championship hoofers were able to raise their game against the stronger sides. Not just for a couple of cup-ties, but in a 12 game league.



You finished 10 points behind the qualifiers in your group. Your two previous managers (less weak, more experienced?) also failed in the two previous series. Ye haven't beaten a higher ranked country in a qualifier since 2001.



Apart from the current finalists, nine other teams outpointed you in the qualifiers. You're barely on the cusp of the top 25 in Europe.

agreed, on current form the North is streets ahead of us. Trap can hopefully change that.

Im just surprised we are still able to convince their players to come to us...

"Are we any good?" The fact that we even have to ask that question really gives us our answer. No, we're not really that good. We arent terrible though. We're tough to beat at home and we have one or two quality players. Hopefully Trap can help us maximise our potential.

Has anyone noticed that (bar the hosts) every team competing in this Euro 2008 malarkey has a strong domestic league. We beat Turkey 5-0 (home) and 3-1 (away) back in the early 90's. Probably qualification for 92. Since then they had Galatasary beating Utd in the European Cup and regular qualifiers to the Champions League. The rise in their club teams has led to a rise in their international team. Same with the Greeks, formerly international whipping boys - now regularly competing in the group stages. The Swedes have a strong domestic league and decent records at club level. Its not coincidence.

Im telling you, once we can be self reliant/self sufficient only then can we aim to be as strong as those 3 teams. Until then we are wasting our time thinking of regular qualification for major tournaments. Although im sure we will get lucky and qualify for the occasional one from time to time.

[Closed Account 2]

Other than Eduardo, what other players Croatian players play for top sides?

Dario Simic plays for Milan (although not that often these days), Rakitic was very good for Schalke in the Champions League, Petric and Kovac play for Dortmund.

[Closed Account 2]

Has anyone noticed that (bar the hosts) every team competing in this Euro 2008 malarkey has a strong domestic league. We beat Turkey 5-0 (home) and 3-1 (away) back in the early 90's. Probably qualification for 92. Since then they had Galatasary beating Utd in the European Cup and regular qualifiers to the Champions League. The rise in their club teams has led to a rise in their international team. Same with the Greeks, formerly international whipping boys - now regularly competing in the group stages. The Swedes have a strong domestic league and decent records at club level. Its not coincidence.

Im telling you, once we can be self reliant/self sufficient only then can we aim to be as strong as those 3 teams. Until then we are wasting our time thinking of regular qualification for major tournaments. Although im sure we will get lucky and qualify for the occasional one from time to time.

That's only part of the argument though... teams like Paraguay, Ecuador, Serbia, Croatia and even Sweden or Poland, don't have strong domestic leagues. Yet they are more than able to compete at the top level. A lot of their players play abroad in leagues all over the world and this lets them be world class. Even if the EL was to develop into a better league we really need to export players to other leagues to develop our game.

[irishultra]

Dario Simic plays for Milan (although not that often these days), Rakitic was very good for Schalke in the Champions League, Petric and Kovac play for Dortmund.

Same Dortmund that finished 13th in Bundesliga right?

But thanks for answering the question, but McGeady was very good for Celtic in the Champions League, Ireland and Dunne play for Man City.

We are a Niko Kovac(the midfielder one) away from being on Croatia' level......blah Modric....he's proved nothing, well no more than McGeady has, and he is a little older as well.

[SkStu]

That's only part of the argument though... teams like Paraguay, Ecuador, Serbia, Croatia and even Sweden or Poland, don't have strong domestic leagues. Yet they are more than able to compete at the top level. A lot of their players play abroad in leagues all over the world and this lets them be world class. Even if the EL was to develop into a better league we really need to export players to other leagues to develop our game.

okay, for starters lets leave Paraguary & Ecuador out of this as they dont qualify out of Europe.

Croatia - Hajduk and Dinamo are well known clubs with a strong european tradition. NK Zagreb, Osijek and Rijeka are three more clubs that are strong in domestic terms. They bring through their young players and export their best. They have 2 domestic players in their squad.

Serbia - they arent even in this tournament but ill allow you to bring them up. They are only the twentieth ranked league in UEFA despite having powerhouses like Red Star and Partizan. They have only been in two major finals since the split of Yugoslavia.

Sweden - they have an ultra competitive league with a number of clubs that have done well recently in Europe. IFK, Djurgardens, Malmo, Halmstad, Hammarby and Helsingborgs. Again, like Croatia they nurture their talent and export the best. And they do it brilliantly.

Poland - a well supported league with some good teams in European terms - Legia Warsaw, Krakow and Poznan would all be fairly well known teams. In their Euro squad they have 10 domestic players.

We have no domestic players in our squad (because none are quite good enough). Our teams have never qualified for group stages of European club competition. We rely on the English league to develop our players. England didnt qualify and are famously at crisis point in terms of the amount of English born players starting each week in the Premier League - what chance do we have in such a situation? Remote. Its down to pure luck that a crop of talented players will make an impact in England simultaneously.

Why not look at the obvious link between domestic strength and international strength instead of trying to deny it and make outlandish claims (not you) that we are nearly as good as Croatia. We are not even remotely close. You say we are merely one midflieder away, irishultra? Id kill for a left back as good as Pranjic, or a centre back partnership as good as Simunic/Kovac, or a midfield partnership like Modric/Kovac or Eduardo and Olic up front. Who are you trying to kid? Youre just kidding yourself.