Drogheda keeper out of gaa team

[gspain]

Drogheda keeper Gary Rogers is in the centre of a row in Meath gaa circles. He plays gaelic for Meath and a county board official refused him a jersey in the dressingroom prior toi a recent game. The manager has been told not to pick him.

His crime is of course playing sockUR.

2 page spread on the evening Herald last night on it and also discussed on Newstalk 106 where George Hook passed the comment that they could have discovered he was a protestant.
I neither know nor care what religion Gary Rogers is but maybe George Hook's flippant remark is the first admission on national radio that there is a sectarian problem in the Forces of Darkness.

Maybe we'll get the ban back.

However on another note - Dublin gaa keeper Stephen Cluxton pulled a masterstroke. Facing a 12 week ban after being sent off for striking an opponent - he leaks a stroy that he was going to play football for Pats during his ban. an appeal was arranged and he is now back playing gaa again. Pity the poor Leitrim keeper sent off a month earlier for a similiar offence still waiting for an appeal. He needs a trial with sligo rovers fast.

Anyway Gary stick to playing the beautiful game

[gspain]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Typical GAA bigotry....

Oh no - shock horror. I agree with Silvio Dante.

[patsh]

Originally posted by gspain
but maybe George Hook's flippant remark is the first admission on national radio that there is a sectarian problem in the Forces of Darkness.

The IRFU is it?
What would a f*ckin ignorant gobdaw like Hook know about GAA, soccer or any real sport?

So some assh*le in Meath acts the neanderthal, a rugger bugger moron makes a "flippant" remark and voila!, the GAA is a sectarian organisation.....

[Dodge]

No, there are plenty of other (highly public) reasons why the GAA is sectarian. Hook's remark is just the first time its been talked about in a public broadcast. Hook probably knows the same as me about GAA but it is the most bigooted organisation in Ireland and I for one will never forgive them for stopping a soccer/GAA charity double header because they didn't want it played on a soccer pitch (RDS at the time)

[patsh]

You BELIEVE there are reasons which, in your opinion, make them sectarian.

Neither does drawing the conclusion that the GAA is sectarian based on the actions of one person and the comments of another.

What you believe does not constitute evidence.

[gspain]

Originally posted by patsh
You BELIEVE there are reasons which, in your opinion, make them sectarian.

Neither does drawing the conclusion that the GAA is sectarian based on the actions of one person and the comments of another.

What you believe does not constitute evidence.

Rogers incident does not make GAA sectarian nor does a flippant remark from George Hook.

The normal arguments trotted out are Sam Maguire was a protestant (true he was also an IRA man) and former president Jack Boothman is also protestant although his first official duty was to attend a Mass in his honour.

While if somebody went along to a GAA club and said I want to play gaelic and they'd say fine and he then said btw he was protestant I doubt if he'd be turned away however the GAA is still very much a Catholic nationalist organisation.

It is also still official GAA policy to unequivocally support the "struggle for national liberation" as per 1979 congress (source Kevin Myers Irish Times Jan 2003).


Their anti British attitude comes out in their hatred of football i.e. the "garrison" or "tan" game.

examples

Liam Brady being expelled from school for captaining Irish schoolboys.

The RDS affair as mentioned above

broken glass being spread across football pitches in Kerry, Clare etc.

Tyrone team endorsing SF candidate in last UK general election.

Sectarian abuse dished out to Peter Whitnell and his mother at a Down v Derry game because he had a protestant father (who wasn't even there).

[patsh]

1. First off, Anyone who uses Kevin Myers as a source during a debate on the GAA or "Irishness" or anything like that, cannot be taken seriously. However, I will answer your points.
2. You mention 5 "examples" as proof of sectarianism:
a.) How does someone being expelled form school, even if this is true, make the GAA sectarian?

b.) The RDS "affair". One bad petty decision, made quite a while ago, before major changes took place in the association. btw, Does Dodge have first hand knowledge of the intimate details?

c.) "broken glass....." anonymous vandalism makes the GAA sectarian?

d.) "Tyrone team....." Wow, a group of people expressing their support for a particular political candidate. Can't get more sectarian than that, eh ?

e.) Some fans dish out sectarian abuse at a player.
Hmmmmm, yes you could be right, maybe the FAI are sectarian all right.

The GAA has many faults and failings. Bizarre for a sporting and cultural organisation, given that no other associations have similar faults.
However, there are a large number of people on this board who trot out the lazy argument that the GAA is sectarian because they say it is.
Show some example of conclusive, verifiable proof that the ethos, beliefs, constitution or rules of the GAA contain a definite sectarian, racist or discriminatory element and than you can debate the statement that" the GAA is a sectarian organisation". Until then you are only posting an opinion.

[Dodge]

Is it article 26 that procludes members of the British army/RUC (or whatever) from playing GAA.

Oh and as it happens I do...

Shamrock Rovers were due to play Bohemians and before that Dublin and Down had arranged to play a GAA "exhibition" before it. All monies were to go to Crumlin Hospital for Children. The GAA HQ stopped it because (according to the press release at the time) " a game such as this serves no purpose for our community and will only be of benefit to soccer supporters.

My big beef with the GAA is the hypocrisy of not allowing soccer in any of its grounds ( on the basis that its a foreign game) but they will allow a game of American Football!!!

[gspain]

Kevin Myers quoted a moton that was passed at the 1979 GAA annual congress and never subsequently overturned giving unequivocal support for the struggle for national liberation.

Rather than attack one of the best journalists around would you care to refute the argument or detail when the motion was overturned.

Other motions were also passed supporting IRA prisoners as well.

I trust you're not going to disagree with what was meant.

Yes other sporting organisations have faults but ultimately they are sporting organisations.

Can you tell me the F.A.I.'s position on the "struggle for national liberation"? I think not because they are more interested in whether our national under 17 team have the logistics organised for a trip to Portugal.

And I don't think it's okay for Sean Teague as captain of Tyrone or Peter Canavan as star player and others to openly as Tyrone GAA players support any "political party" particularly an extreme one that is steeped in violence and sectarianism.

[patsh]

Dodge:
the ban on members of the British Army/Ruc is long gone.
The British army and PSNI have played Gaelic Football matches already and intend to play more.
I agree with you that is hypocritcial of the GA toallow American football while not allowing soccer, but that hardly equates to sectarianism.

As for Kevin Myers being "one of the best journalists around", I again completely and utterly disagree with your opinion.
"support for the struggle for national liberation" is NOT sectarianism, no matter what type of spin youv'e been fed by Myers and his ilk.
As for the FAI's position, the GAA is a sporting and CULTURAL organisation, so the FAI does not compare.
The fact that you are a soccer fan, does it preclude you from having a position on anything else ?

And I don't think it's okay for Sean Teague as captain of Tyrone or Peter Canavan as star player and others to openly as Tyrone GAA players support any "political party" particularly an extreme one that is steeped in violence and sectarianism.

The operative words here are "I don't think".
So what?
You don't think so, the people who live in Tyrone can make their own minds up. They can vote for whomsoever they choose too.
By the Tyrone team backing a SF candidate, that makes Dinny Allen, Jimmy Barry Murphy, and all other members of the GAA sectarian?

Ye are offering opinions, which ye are quite entitled to do, but that hardly constitues a definitive answer to the charge of sectarianism.

[tiktok]

Originally posted by patsh
By the Tyrone team backing a SF candidate, that makes....the GAA sectarian?

It does. When the GAA took no action to distance themselves from the act of being drawn into Politics.

Rule 21 stated:
"inelligible to join the association are members of the British armed forces and police" and also
"a member of the GAA participating in dances or similar entertainment promoted by or under the patronage of such bodies shall incur a suspension of at least three months"

Such rules do little to promote the GAA as non-sectarian. The rule has been overturned ( btw: recently given the 120yr history of the GAA), however there still lies within the GAA a strong anti-british government (and sectarian) sentiment.

It was deleted in Nov. 2001, with approximately 1 in 3 voting to maintain it. Among the County Boards that spoke to retain the rule on voting day was Tyrone (with Antrim and Armagh), the same Board whose players supported the Sinn Fein candidate.

Everyone is free to pledge support to whomever they wish. It is wrong to do this (symbolically) wearing your County GAA jersey.

[pete]

GAA, sectarianism & hypocracy in the same sentence?????

[patsh]

Originally posted by pete
GAA, sectarianism & hypocracy in the same sentence?????

FAI, sectarianism, hypocrisy....
IRFU, sectarianism, hypocrisy....
we could go on and on.
Still not a shred of proof from anyone yet.

As for tiktok, your reply, no offence intended, is simply rubbish, especially by your selective editing.
Because a certain group of players vote for a certain candidate, it means half the population of this country is sectarian?
Cop on.
to be honest, I'm not even sure of your point, so maybe you can spell it out for me.
btw, ALL associations, from local residents groups to FIFA or the IOC are "drawn" into politics.

[tiktok]

Originally posted by patsh
As for tiktok, your reply, no offence intended, is simply rubbish, especially by your selective editing.

how could i take offence at such an eloquent rebuttal
the only thing i edited is two names in your quote, i have no great desire to start calling people i don't know sectarian.
anyway, an organisation can be sectarian without all it's members being so.

Originally posted by patsh
I'm not even sure of your point, so maybe you can spell it out for me.

what i was saying is that Rule 21 was sectarian, it excluded a group from our sport and excluded members of the GAA from associating with other groups. that is fundamentally sectarian. Since one third of the delegates voted to maintain it, i suggest that there are still a significantly large number of GAA members who are sectarian.

btw, i never said all the members (or half) of the GAA were sectarian (as you brought up selective editing).

[gspain]

Maybe we'll put it another way - 20% of the population of this island are protestant.

1) How amny protestants will be playing in Croke Park this weekend?

2) Who was the last protestant to win an All Ireland medal?

- Want a hint - well i think you are a Pats fan and you had a great centre half in the 1950's - Tommy Dunne who also played for Ireland - well it back in the time when Tommy's father Jimmy was banging in the goals for Arsenal & Ireland i.e. a very long time ago.

3) What are the GAA doing to encourage people of the unionist tradition to play Gaa.

Members of different associations can have different views but sporting organisations should be interested in sport and not in politics.

If you don't consider SF/IRA to be sectarian then I'd rather not get into a debate on them as it is not relevant to this forum. Suffice to say that almost all the majority community in Northern Ireland would disagree and strongly so. Imagine the outcry if the captain of Linfield came out and said he supported the UDA or if the IFA passed a motion at their AGM supporting "their struggle".

[Dodge]

Patsh is not a Pats fan, he's a cork fan...

[patsh]

Originally posted by tiktok
how could i take offence at such an eloquent rebuttal
the only thing i edited is two names in your quote, i have no great desire to start calling people i don't know sectarian.
anyway, an organisation can be sectarian without all it's members being so.

You are calling a lot of people sectarian as it is.
Do you know all the people in the GAA who you claim are sectarian?
Your post was rubbish, because you focused on a rule which is no longer in existance, and serious efforts have been since made to repair the damage done by that rule.
You are talking about a situation which no longer exists.

Originally posted by tiktok

what i was saying is that Rule 21 was sectarian, it excluded a group from our sport and excluded members of the GAA from associating with other groups. that is fundamentally sectarian. Since one third of the delegates voted to maintain it, i suggest that there are still a significantly large number of GAA members who are sectarian.

btw, i never said all the members (or half) of the GAA were sectarian (as you brought up selective editing).

That rule is gone.
The British Army and PSNI have since been asked, helped and encouraged to set up Gaelic football teams and have played games with members of the defence forces of this country.
Even if your contention is true that 1 third of the organisation is sectarian, does that make the WHOLE organisation sectarian?
Can you allow that sectarianism was not the main reason for a lot of those people voting for the retention of this rule?

You said that the GAA is sectarian. That includes all people in the organisation. You cannot say the organisation is sectarian, but a lot of the people in the organisation are not. The people ARE the organisation.

You also have said that "within the GAA a strong anti-british government (and sectarian) sentiment."
Now a few posters here have shown strong anti-GAA sentiment. Is it fair of me to call all of you sectarian or bigoted on the basis of this "anti" stance.
Remember that the same anti-british sentiment can be found in a huge percentage of the general population of this country. Are we all, therefore, sectarian?

Originally posted by gspain

Maybe we'll put it another way - 20% of the population of this island are protestant.

1) How amny protestants will be playing in Croke Park this weekend?

How many Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists?
So lets get 20% of players to be Protestant, and by that sectarian head count, the GAA will prove it is not sectarian ?!

2) Who was the last protestant to win an All Ireland medal?

- Want a hint - well i think you are a Pats fan and you had a great centre half in the 1950's - Tommy Dunne who also played for Ireland - well it back in the time when Tommy's father Jimmy was banging in the goals for Arsenal & Ireland i.e. a very long time ago.

I don't know or care.
I would also bet you that 99% of GAA people couldn't answer the question either, because it is of no importance to anyone except those who want to use stats like that for their own purposes.
btw, you should not be making assumptions about people you do not know.

3) What are the GAA doing to encourage people of the unionist tradition to play Gaa.

As already outlined above.
However, I don't expect Croke Park to be approaching Paisley, Trimble or any of their ilk any time soon, given their vehement repudiation of any "Irish"

Members of different associations can have different views but sporting organisations should be interested in sport and not in politics.

If you don't consider SF/IRA to be sectarian then I'd rather not get into a debate on them as it is not relevant to this forum. Suffice to say that almost all the majority community in Northern Ireland would disagree and strongly so. Imagine the outcry if the captain of Linfield came out and said he supported the UDA or if the IFA passed a motion at their AGM supporting "their struggle".

As already mentioned, the Gaa is a sporting AND CULTURAL organisation.

I don't how SF or the IRA is relevant to anything I've said or posted. My thoughts on those groups have nothing to do with my contention that the GAA is not sectarian. If you want to debate entirely separate matters, no problem, but again I must warn you against making assumptions, in this case some very silly ones.

As you mention Linfield, it would be harder to find a club with a more sectarian following. Does this make the club itself equally as sectarian? I don't believe so.
The club itself once was a bastion of bigotry and racism, but that time is gone now.
The IFA has never really covered itself with glory either, yet it too has made strides to reform itself.
The GAA has some indefensible positions, as have a lot of organisations. Yet you still have not provided anything except your own predujices to damn the GAA with.

[gspain]

>>>patsh re Linfield
The club itself once was a bastion of bigotry and racism, but that time is gone now.
>>>

Interesting that you see or saw Linfield and the IFA as being possibly racist,sectarian etc.

I'm not aware of any evidence on the IFA and would disagree but on Linfield and sectarianism I would agree given that from approx 1950-1988 the club did have one Catholic player. While this was an unwritten rule it was certainly there in practice. Therefore they were a sectarian club in those years. No other football club on this island can I believe be labelled now or in the past with this tag.

However I would be very interested in the criteria you apply to Linfield and what your results would be if applied these to the GAA or individual gaa teams eg I don't know the breakdown on a county by county basis in Northern Ireland but can I assume that on average 65% of GAA Inter County players in Northern Ireland are protestant.

As for fans being sectarian yes it's a problem everywhere however it is a bigger problem when clubs and organisations play on this and profit from it.

[tiktok]

Originally posted by patsh
Your post was rubbish, because you focused on a rule which is no longer in existance, and serious efforts have been since made to repair the damage done by that rule.

i acknowleged that the rule has been deleted, and i have no prolem recognising that strides are being made to bring the association out of the dark ages.

Originally posted by patsh
You are talking about a situation which no longer exists.

that's being blinkered on your part. i still contend that one third of delegates voting to keep the rule in place means that a large percentage of GAA members maintain that sectarian rule 21 is a good thing.

Originally posted by patsh
The British Army and PSNI have since been asked, helped and encouraged to set up Gaelic football teams and have played games with members of the defence forces of this country.

those games were played behind closed doors, RTE news cameras were asked not to show the british army memebrs playing. this is because they feared for their safety. Before you jump, this doesn't make the GAA sectarian, but it clearly shows that there are sectarian considerations still stemming from what was a sectarian rule.

Originally posted by patsh
You cannot say the organisation is sectarian, but a lot of the people in the organisation are not. The people ARE the organisation.

of course I can, the catholic church is opposed to gay marriage (one group excluding another group from it's practices therefore in it's nature sectarian), yet i know for a fact that the church does not speak for all it's members in this case.
the GAA deleted Rule 21 when one third of it's members wanted it retained, did the organisation speak for all it's memners in that case.
The people are NOT the organisation. that's just Oprah-babble.

Originally posted by patsh
You also have said that "within the GAA a strong anti-british government (and sectarian) sentiment."

and you don't deny it exists!!! yet you deny that the organisation is ain anyway sectarian

Originally posted by patsh
Now a few posters here have shown strong anti-GAA sentiment. Is it fair of me to call all of you sectarian or bigoted on the basis of this "anti" stance.

no one here is excluding you from debating on the topic, if Foot.ie excluded you from posting, then foot.ie would be behaving in a sectarian manner regardless of whether it's members wanted to maintain your presence, as i for one would. Now, if the ban on you was lifted and one third of the posters objected, are you telling me you wouldn't feel there was a strong 'sectarian' sentiment on the board.

Originally posted by patsh
Remember that the same anti-british sentiment can be found in a huge percentage of the general population of this country. Are we all, therefore, sectarian?

of course not, and once again i never said all the members of the GAA were sectarian. But if a vote was taken and the government adopted an anti-british sentiment as policy then the nation would be sectarian without all of the voters being so.

of course there are non-sectarian members of the GAA, if there weren't Rule 21 would still be in place. it's only by having members disagreeing from within that the wrongs in organisations can be changed.

But was the GAA sectarian before the 17.nov.2001 and non sectarian after that date? My argumment is that as surely as there were non-sectarian members seeking to change that rule, there are now sectarian members who wish it had been kept.

[patsh]

Originally posted by tiktok
that's being blinkered on your part. i still contend that one third of delegates voting to keep the rule in place means that a large percentage of GAA members maintain that sectarian rule 21 is a good thing.

Blinkered?????????
This one third you keep going on about. It makes "a large percentage of the GAA sectarian".
What about the other two thirds?
So which is it?
The GAA is sectarian or a minority of the GAA is sectarian?
The GAA is non sectarian or the majority of the GAA is non-sectarian?

those games were played behind closed doors, RTE news cameras were asked not to show the british army memebrs playing. this is because they feared for their safety. Before you jump, this doesn't make the GAA sectarian, but it clearly shows that there are sectarian considerations still stemming from what was a sectarian rule.

It shows nothing of the sort.
The, probable, cause of not showing the Army players is security reasons. If members of a defence force request anonymity, your deduction is that the GAA is sectarian. Thats a very strange thought process.

of course I can, the catholic church is opposed to gay marriage (one group excluding another group from it's practices therefore in it's nature sectarian), yet i know for a fact that the church does not speak for all it's members in this case.
the GAA deleted Rule 21 when one third of it's members wanted it retained, did the organisation speak for all it's memners in that case.

You display a complete lack of understanding of both the GAA and the Catholic Church.
The CC is a hierarchical organisation, where rules, regulations and
beliefs come from above, no discussion, no debate, and where members are expected to act, think and live in a particular way. If you disagree with anything, you have two choices: Leave or say nothing.
The GAA is a democratic organisation, based around the fact that any member can bring a motion to their club, which can then be voted on and effect change throughout the whole organisation.

So "one third of people" make the GAA sectarian, but two thirds have no effect?

The people are NOT the organisation. that's just Oprah-babble.

You may know what "Oprah-babble" means, but I don't. Not everyone in this country gets their lead from American TV.

and you don't deny it exists!!! yet you deny that the organisation is ain anyway sectarian

YOU said that this sentiment exists. I said that given that this exists in the population at large, it would not be strange to find some people with similar views in the GAA?

of course not, and once again i never said all the members of the GAA were sectarian. But if a vote was taken and the government adopted an anti-british sentiment as policy then the nation would be sectarian without all of the voters being so.

When did the GAA adopt a sectarian motion?

of course there are non-sectarian members of the GAA, if there weren't Rule 21 would still be in place. it's only by having members disagreeing from within that the wrongs in organisations can be changed.

How nice of you to admit this.
By your own reckoning, TWO THIRDS, 66%, a sizeable majority of members, are not sectarian.

But was the GAA sectarian before the 17.nov.2001 and non sectarian after that date? My argumment is that as surely as there were non-sectarian members seeking to change that rule, there are now sectarian members who wish it had been kept.

So now your argument is that some of the GAA is sectarian.
To justify this you concentrated on one rule of a few hundred, one which no longer exists.
Bit of a difference from aying the GAA is sectarian.

So to sum up.
Some of the population of this country are racist.
Some are sectarian.
So by your debate up to now, your opinion would be that Ireland is a sectarian, racist state.
Your reasoning is flawed and your argument does not hold up.

Lets just leave this, you will hold to your opinion, which I know to be wrong.