Marc Wilson

[geysir]

I don't think what O'Neill said is mean't for the likes of Gibson, Wilson or McClean, it's mean't for the footballers who might be thinking to declare to the FAI. In fact the Belfast Telly does its level best to twist a few quotes into an O'Neill rant at the FAI.
Though Wilson is quite entitled to tell him to f'ck off and not cast aspersions on any aspects of his international 'career', things he knows nothing about.

O'Neill SLAMS FAI

[ArdeeBhoy]

What, exactly, is the point?

I can understand Wilson being annoyed by what he likely sees as O'Neill's wind-ups. That said, claiming that a player from NI's motivation in deciding to who to play for is none of the NI manager's business is a bit silly.

Not everyone shares Wilson's single-mindedness- if they did, international teams wouldn't have so many players who've never actually lived in their represented countries.

Maybe Off the Ball and RTE are deliberately stoking this story because they think O'Neill ranting is good copy. Alternatively, the lack of a counter to him might suggest that other journalists and pundits just aren't that interested. Or possibly that some might even agree with him.

Put another way, Wilson's eligibility to play for more than one international side is straightforward enough. But it's neither fundamental (in the sense of being some great issue of principle), nor something that is inherently beyond comment by those with an interest, like O'Neill.

[Gather round]

Unfortunately, [O'Neill] doesn't seem to understand Wilson's single-mindedness, as you noted, and will therefore forever be baffled by players who would treasure one cap for ROI or England or Scotland over 50 caps for a country they only half-identify with. To him, 50 is a much bigger number than 1, and who'd choose 1 when they can have 50

I don't think what O'Neill said is meant for the likes of Gibson, Wilson or McClean, it's mean't for the footballers who might be thinking to declare to the FAI. In fact the Belfast Telly does its level best to twist a few quotes into an O'Neill rant at the FAI

Aye, fair points both.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does this need a correction?

No, I meant Wilson's problem with what O'Neill said, I didn't mean he has a problem in the negative sense.

[osarusan]

TFor O'Neill to bring the notion of career caps into the equation, further claim to have sympathy for what he perceives to have been poor career choices made by switching players and then presume that some of these players must surely regret their decisions is to completely misunderstand the motivations of Irish nationals born north of the border who declare for the FAI.

Are you saying that any Irish national born north of the border who declares for the FAI can only have made that decision based on national allegiance? There cannot be any other motivation?

You will not entertain the notion that any of them made the decision based on what they see as a good career move?

[DannyInvincible]

Are saying that any Irish national born north of the border who declares for the FAI can only have made that decision based on national allegiance? There cannot be any other motivation?

You will not entertain the notion that any of them made the decision based on what they see as a good career move?

Certainly, there may be other motivations. I'm pretty sure Eunan O'Kane stated his decision was a career choice, although whether that was to limit any potential criticism or the misplaced accusations of "sectarianism" he might have expected from certain quarters, who's to know for sure?

The likes of Wilson, Gibson, McClean, Duffy and Kearns all explained their reasoning as being rooted in a cultural affiliation with their national team, however, so it's no surprise Wilson felt somewhat insulted by O'Neill mentioning his name last week, as if to suggest he was an example of a player who'd made a career choice in terms of deciding what international side to represent, and a poor one at that. I would think most players from the north who opt for the FAI would be of the same thinking as these players as it would be difficult to argue that declaring for the FAI at the expense of the IFA would be the greater guarantee of game-time.

[ifk101]

I would think most players from the north who opt for the FAI would be of the same thinking as these players as it would be difficult to argue that declaring for the FAI at the expense of the IFA would be the greater guarantee of game-time.

True. A "good career move" at club level is moving to a team offering greater first team playing opportunities. If we apply this to international football, and assume players chose their football association as a career choice, representing the Northern Irish FA would be the "good career move" as there is weak competition for team places.

[DannyInvincible]

Ultimately, we won't know for absolutely certain what the motivation of every single player might be. Some may see opting for the team they perceive to be the better of the two or the team with the greater chance of qualification for major tournaments as a "good career move", but I just think it less likely that such motivations would be paramount for most players, not only because it doesn't really add up - competition for places being greater in FAI squads - but as is also evident from the reasons given by those high-profile players from the north who have declared for the FAI and subsequently been questioned about their choice by the media.

[osarusan]

it would be difficult to argue that declaring for the FAI at the expense of the IFA would be the greater guarantee of game-time.

McClean wouldn't have much chance of an appearance at 2012 for NI, would he?

True. A "good career move" at club level is moving to a team offering greater first team playing opportunities.

Or offering them the possibility to play at tournaments they wouldn't otherwise get to play at?

[osarusan]

The likes of Wilson, Gibson, McClean, Duffy and Kearns all explained their reasoning as being rooted in a cultural affiliation with their national team

but as is also evident from the reasons given by those high-profile players from the north who have declared for the FAI and subsequently been questioned about their choice by the media.

Without wanting to open a can of worms, what else would you expect them to say, in that situation? Even if they did declare for Ireland because they just wanted to play at a higher level and qualify for (more) tournaments (and I've no reason to believe this is the case), they're hardly likely to tell the truth.

[tetsujin1979]

Or offering them the possibility to play at tournaments they wouldn't otherwise get to play at?

There's no "right" answer to which would give you a better career move. Declare for the North and you'll get probably get more caps at international level, which can help you move on to a bigger club (e.g. David Healy), play for the Republic and you'll have a better chance of playing in an international tournament, but might not get as many caps.

[ifk101]

Or offering them the possibility to play at tournaments they wouldn't otherwise get to play at?

Because we are regular qualifiers for tournaments and the North aren't?

[osarusan]

There's no "right" answer to which would give you a better career move. Declare for the North and you'll get probably get more caps at international level, which can help you move on to a bigger club (e.g. David Healy), play for the Republic and you'll have a better chance of playing in an international tournament, but might not get as many caps.

Agreed, which is why I don't think the argument that a declaration for ROI can't have a pragmatic motivation isn't as compelling as others think.

[ifk101]

Agreed, which is why I don't think the argument that a declaration for ROI can't have a pragmatic motivation isn't as compelling as others think.

Shouldn't we be seeing a relative even spread of careerists from both sides of the Northern Ireland community then?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Because we are regular qualifiers for tournaments and the North aren't?

Make that, irregular and non-existent.

[paul_oshea]

Alan kernaghan(kinda) fits osarusans argument. As usual there is always one exception.

I think Osarusan is suggesting those of a nationalist, and/or catholic background might not be bothered about playing for or not playing for NI, but see ROI as a stepping stone to enhance their career. But there is no chance of someone from the other divide declaring. Which leads me onto the next point.....

Shouldn't we be seeing a relative even spread of careerists from both sides of the Northern Ireland community then?

I think that should be the end of this silly discussion now.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, we're underestimating the paranoia factor. And that's just the 'reasonable' unionists!

[geysir]

Agreed, which is why I don't think the argument that a declaration for ROI can't have a pragmatic motivation isn't as compelling as others think.

Has anyone argued that a pragmatic motivation for declaring for the FAI doesn't exist? The exposure has and will benefit players but it's a normal effect from playing intl football.
The northern born players who have declared for the FAI can speak (and have spoken) for themselves. One can be cynical, but just because there is a premise to be cynical, doesn't make it so.
Just how many different motivations exist that can play a part in a northern born players decision to declare for the FAI?
And out of all those motivations, national identity, pride, ultimate ambition, desire, 'career move' etc etc
what % do you want to give to 'career move' playing a part in a players' strategy in their choice of national team.

[paul_oshea]

Thats a good point geysir, its a percentages game, its all about percentages in life too. There could be a percentage of it that goes that way, but I think the pressure, the situation and some amount of stress would it really make it worth it just for potential career-prospects? I mean its not like declaring for Brazil.

[osarusan]

Has anyone argued that a pragmatic motivation for declaring for the FAI doesn't exist? The exposure has and will benefit players but it's a normal effect from playing intl football.
The northern born players who have declared for the FAI can speak (and have spoken) for themselves. One can be cynical, but just because there is a premise to be cynical, doesn't make it so.
Just how many different motivations exist that can play a part in a northern born players decision to declare for the FAI?
And out of all those motivations, national identity, pride, ultimate ambition, desire, 'career move' etc etc
what % do you want to give to 'career move' playing a part in a players' strategy in their choice of national team.

Danny suggested that O'Neill's comments on career caps and so on were ignorant of the thinking and motivation of NI-born players declaring for NI. I don't think such a blanket statement can be made about the motivation of such players. Danny has clarified his position since then, I would say.


I agree with you that his comments are more aimed at those who may be considering with which association their future lies with, rather than those who have already made the decision. But it was daft to mention Wilson's name (or any name, really).

I don't know or care about what percentage of any motivation makes up a player's decision either way. I was questioning Danny's original position that national allegiance lay at the heart of all these declarations and that any suggestion otherwise was an ignorant misrepresentation.