Calls for University in the South-East

[GavinZac]

So his point then is that upon the condition that funding for other institutes isn't unduly diminished that WIT can become WU (WIT-WU, sounds attractive )? Is that your point John83, or were you just blowing off steam about Irish parochialism?

Can this not signal the requisite increased commitment from the state to funding education? Or is that too idealistic?

UCC is just down the road. Why not increase funding to both UCC and WIT without the mé féin-ism of complaining about the title?

[John83]

...It's like the push for letter boxes at the end of the drive rather than the postie driving up to the house - fine for us who are probably out at work, not so hot from the OAP who's only contact with another human being all day was the postie dropping in the mail and passing the time of day. Things like that shouldn't be underestimated imo...

As much as that is true, it says more about our failure, both socially and via government intervention, to do enough for the elderly. If the postman is a vital part of many pensioners' social lives, we've failed them badly. I suppose the point raised before about closing regional services before they're replaced is valid here too.

...I am unaware of there being any rural post-office that did not contain the shop element: indeed the more rural you get the more commonly you find that the only local shop is the post office. Without the post office, the fear is that shop would die, and similarly, without the post office, you rely on the church to meet people.

I wonder, how tiny must a community be for it not to be capable of supporting a shop?

Another question is what does it cost An Post to maintain such a shop/PO hybrid? If the operator was merely taking a percentage, surely it's of no benefit to close it? Is it a fixed fee paid to the operator? That might be too much for a very low volume PO. Or is it that An Post owns the whole operation, and is running it at a loss?

I think that the problem is as much as anything about infrastructure. The cities and towns were poorly facilitated with social outlets (still are in my opinion), so what chance did the rural enclaves have?

This.

It's a community problem as much as a government one. I don't like leaning on An Post to put a bandage over it either.

...At any rate, I can't understand why you'd argue against something as important as educational advancement!

I think most of the points you raised are valid, but disagree with the effectiveness of the solution. osarusan explains a major concern also.

On the point I've quoted, retooling an IT as a university isn't educational advancement. If there are enough good students to benefit from the extra university places, then yes, otherwise you're just lowering the standard of university graduate. That means our degrees are seen as worth less abroad, and that hurts us more than it helps.

I think his point is that having more universities will mean that funding will be spread out more thinly between universities, thus reducing the standard of education that those universities are able to provide. And without proper funding, I'd agree that this could happen.

Yes, that's a very significant factor, I believe.

I still feel, however, that there do need to be more centres of education in places other than Dublin. It might do something to stop Dublin's population increasing so quickly, and help population issues in more rural areas.

The way to bring population to an area is to bring jobs to the area. If you educate the locals, but there are no jobs, they'll just move to Dublin.

So his point then is that upon the condition that funding for other institutes isn't unduly diminished that WIT can become WU (WIT-WU, sounds attractive )? Is that your point John83, or were you just blowing off steam about Irish parochialism?

Hell yes, I was blowing off steam! On funding issue, yes it would need to be resolved, but there also needs to be enough students of adequate quality, as I discussed above. This is about funding and standards in primary and particularly secondary education. Did you know they're removing calculus from the Leaving Cert higher maths syllabus? Calculus! I pity the maths, science and engineering lecturers who'll have to pick up the pieces after that.

Can this not signal the requisite increased commitment from the state to funding education? Or is that too idealistic?

State funding has decreased substantially in real terms over the last ten years. While the government has put a lot of money into so-called '4th level' research, it's seriously neglecting the undergraduates.

[Bluebeard]

It may surprise you, John, but I largely agree with most of what you are saying. I personally believe that the concept of the University is ultimately dead in the way that Latin is, and that most Universities in Britain and Ireland are becoming more like ITs or Polys, as that is where the market is driving them, regardless of nomenclature. As many have said, I much would rather WIT expanded and diversified, became a Uni in all but name, and the funding was increased, rather than the reverse.

Unfortunately, from my years involved in the third level field, there is huge snobbery about titles. Ironically, I used almost always choose to hire someone with a relevant PLC than a degree or diploma holder in my field, as it the others tend to be weaker on the practical basics - my own degrees are sheets of paper that opened doors rather than taught me how to do what I do. This is rather unfortunate in my opinion, as is the attitude that if you want to do something for a living, an apprenticeship is sneered at by some, another by-product of the university snobbery. Of course you also have the problem of inverted snobbery, especially in places where there is no culture of University attendance where you get accused of being a waster / sponger / having notions for attending, at that too must be addressed.

Back to the local post office

I also agree with you that the old folk of this country have been very poorly served. For all the talk of free travel on public transport, it can only really apply when there is some nearby and accessible. I personally deplored the nature of the Post Office goissipy chatter - it used wreck my head queuing for sweets or a stamp for my mother, but, no that I do not have to listen to it any more, I see why it was so intense.

It is also important to note what is important is not the size of population, but the location. An area the size of Tallaght exist with a very small population in certain parts of the country, parts exist where it is not unusual to have lengthy waits for fire engines or ambulances, and they appear to be growing as the mass migration from the land to the cities increases. Owing to years of governmental policy on both sides of the house, these are places where if you do not have a car, you suffer an incredible amount of discrimination. Some areas have got up off their arses and met closures with organised community buses, but surely that is part of what the LDCs' and Co. Councils' jobs are meant to be?

I cannot tell you which way around it was with the local post offices - I presume that in my day they were essentially franchises, where the Post Office was set up, someone agreed to take it over and ran a shop on the side, as a way of making ends meet and presumably to capitalise on the steady stream of incoming people. One may think that there is small loss when the post office closes, but in some places the shop will invariably follow. Then, the people who can, will drift towards the town or nearest big village for their stamps and food, and the church (which will run the local school), will once more become the only place where some communities get to meet up.

The fact remains that, owing to a general laissez-faire policy regarding the development of rural Ireland, facilities do not exist, and the post office has become the secular centre of many Irish communities, rightly or wrongly. I don't think it should be An Post's problem - they didn't set up post offices for that purpose, and you can imagine how annoying it is when Peg has to count out the pennies for her Irish Indo while you are waiting to buy a stamp before running into school. However, something should be done to provide for community, and especially those who chose many years ago to stay in the rural parts of the country.

[reder]

In the meantime, CIT and DIT are considerring similar applications apparently.

UCC and Trinity/DCU/UCD provide more than sufficient university facilities for Cork and Dublin. CIT and DIT applications should be revoked. All in all, I think there are enough universities in the republic.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what the criteria is for university status?

[superfrank]

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what the criteria is for university status?

No. But I have heard that DIT more than qualify.

[Bald Student]

The answer depends on what question you ask;

Does the South East deserve a university?
Does the country need another university?

[John83]

It may surprise you, John, but I largely agree with most of what you are saying.

Not in the slightest. A number of people have contributed insights here which have made this thread informative and interesting. I rarely get to say this, but it's been a pleasure discussing this with you all.

[SligoBrewer]

The answer depends on what question you ask;

Does the South East deserve a university?
Does the country need another university?

Could we strip a smaller University of their status and give the money instead to fund a Waterford university?

Is their any need for DCU or Maynooth to have University status?

[Bald Student]

Could we strip a smaller University of their status and give the money instead to fund a Waterford university?

Is their any need for DCU or Maynooth to have University status?

I don't think money is the main issue. There's a limited supply of students out there and the numbers are dropping. As it is, I think too many people go to university when they'd probably be better off working or getting a more practical education. I think it's particularly true here in UCD. Because of the part of the city we're in, most families simply expect their children to go to university. You particularly see them studying arts, they drift into it because it lets them put off making a decision about what to specialise in for another year.

WIT lobbying to become a university based on the argument that universities are better than ITs adds to the problem. There's nothing wrong with studying in a more practical way, it suits a lot of people.

In my mind, the root of the issue is a type of snobbery, that Universities are better than ITs and that the students in them are better than students in ITs or other colleges.

[SligoBrewer]

I think too many people go to university when they'd probably be better off working or getting a more practical education. I think it's particularly true here in UCD. Because of the part of the city we're in, most families simply expect their children to go to university. You particularly see them studying arts, they drift into it because it lets them put off making a decision about what to specialise in for another year.

That's what I'm saying. I'm only 17 and still in school but when I went to see DCU on an open day the place felt very like an IT and not a university. Most of the people there didn't seem like they wanted to be in a university. I can't see why we fund universities when there is, in my opinion, no need for so many of them. Especially when they are all concentrated in nearly the one city.

I don't know the specifics of Waterford's claim to be a university, but I honestly can't see the difference myself from what DCU wanted to offer me to go there, to what Sligo IT offers.

I think we should strip the smaller universities of their status as there are too many. There should be a noticeable difference between what an institute of technology and what a university offers to a 3rd level student.

[Bluebeard]

That's what I'm saying. I'm only 17 and still in school but when I went to see DCU on an open day the place felt very like an IT and not a university. Most of the people there didn't seem like they wanted to be in a university. I can't see why we fund universities when there is, in my opinion, no need for so many of them. Especially when they are all concentrated in nearly the one city.

I don't know the specifics of Waterford's claim to be a university, but I honestly can't see the difference myself from what DCU wanted to offer me to go there, to what Sligo IT offers.

I think we should strip the smaller universities of their status as there are too many. There should be a noticeable difference between what an institute of technology and what a university offers to a 3rd level student.

This is the problem - as an National Institute of Higher Education (NIHE), like what became UL, if fulfilled a very specific role and there was no problem with this. The the demands came for a Uni in this area and that area, something more than just a Regional Technical College (RTC). So they bumped them up in the late 80s, without a real plan to develop it into a uni, rather to appease a large and influential voting block.

Then the RTCs one by one complained that they didn't like the title. So in the late 1990s, one by one, they became ITs. Now some of these want to be universities.

I happen to have a degree validated by DCU and have worked with, in and around the place, as well as living nearby for a number of years, and in all reality, it is in many ways Glasnevin IT. Which is fine - it serves a purpose. But it is not really all that much of a university for the most part. No disrespect to students there, but it isn't. And to be honest, many courses in the "established universities" have become in many ways less like you would expect from a uni and more what you would expect from an IT. This is nothing to do with quality, it is more to do with the nature of the content and delivery.

Not in the slightest. A number of people have contributed insights here which have made this thread informative and interesting. I rarely get to say this, but it's been a pleasure discussing this with you all.

A thread here where people are talking passionately, yet level headedly, with efforts to provide facts to defend arguments, nobody dissing ANYBODY, people agreeing.

That has surely got to be the breaking of at least two seals on the Old Christian Scale!

[Aberdonian Stu]

Well the concept of a NIHE makes sense as it essentially an IT style of learning with some courses, most notably humanities and law, that aren't typically found in an IT also present. Note I said typically, I know all ITs have them to some extent but they play a far greater role in the two former NIHEs.

Granting them a status that was neither IT/RTC nor university made sense as they fit in a gap in between the two when it came to style. Unfortunately politics and socio-economic perceptions have got in the way and as a result the concept of not being a university meant these institutions were wrongly seen as something lesser and unworthy.

Also we've focussed a lot of students here but academics are another key point to keep in mind. The further we dilute the university academic pool, the harder it gets for Ireland to attract the best academics. A more focussed approach breeds health competition, which leads to higher standards, which in turn attracts the best people.

That said I think one of the reasons DCU and UL have continued to be successful in attracting the right academics to meet their needs is that they have continued to seek the type of people they sought whilst they were called NIHEs. That practical, I would almost go as far as to say aggressive, approach to learning is what aids them in getting the people they want.

[kingdom hoop]

Some very good, valid opinions above. Although this one, not so much;

UCC is just down the road. Why not increase funding to both UCC and WIT without the mé féin-ism of complaining about the title?

Hardly just down the road to be fair! Maybe from west Waterford you might commute, but from the rest of Waterford, and particularly Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford there's no way a dedicated student (or a committed environmentalist) could spend so many hours a day travelling to and fro. Fair play, by the way, on ignoring the thread's important points and creating your own little arguments. ...... Anyway from the available sample I'd hazard a guess that UCC is full of tossers.

As it happens, Geraldine addressed the issue in her editorial today, and gave the idea her reserved support. A few quotes: "(it's got a lot of support) But the Government is wary: both the Taoiseach and Ms Hanafin have insisted that Waterford's application must be considered in the context of what is best for the third-level sector as a whole." "The south-east has a strong case. It is the only major region without a university and the one with the lowest disposable income per capita. A university would act as a catalyst for growth and regeneration. It would boost the region from an economic, social and cultural perspective. And WIT itself has the academic range and the appropriate governance and strategic capability required for a university."

"He (Dr. Port, the author of government-commissioned feasibility analysis) says a university for Waterford could trigger a range of applications from other institutes and undermine the jobs and careers focus of the institute of technology (IoT) sector." "Port refers to the finding of the 2004 OECD report on the third-level sector which stated inter alia that the State had enough universities and argued for the preservation of the current university/IoT mix. The Cabinet must be cognisant of this issue in making its decision."

"Waterford has a persuasive case that has been eloquently and convincingly advanced over an extended period. It deserves to be successful on its own merits. And it should be possible to ring fence a decision in its favour to ensure the role of the wider IoT sector is not compromised."



(by the by, just watched the provided video there.... many at the "shur what else would you be doing on a Wednesday only coming up to Dublin" comment from Michael Walsh.)

[blackholesun]

Thats it , i failed first year many moons ago due to reasons stated above and I had to pay the repeat fees

If you pay to repeat then at the end of your two years in first year, you've paid for one year and the gov have paid for one year.

But if you have to payback the fees for the failed first year and then redid first year free, it would work out the same one year each.

But the big diff is people who drop out or fail and dont repeat, this way all that wasted money could be clawed back and put into the postgrad sector where it is badly needed if we want to build a knowledge based economy!

bhs

[GavinZac]

Anyway from the available sample I'd hazard a guess that UCC is full of tossers.

Normally I'd be bothered to make some sort of witty retort, but, well, **** you.

[Ceirtlis]

The OECD done a report on this a couple of years ago and said that there were enough universities in the republic of ireland. I think the thing the government is afraid of is that if waterford get status then Cit,Gmit and others will claim they are as good as WIT and therefore should be universities. This is what happened when waterford was the first to be awarded the title of IT.
I recently graduated from the WIT and I dont know that the place is university standard to be honest. They are very weak on the administrative side and also there is a bit of resistance amongst some of the people working there because they know that uni status means less holidays and would change their jobs.
I have to say im glad i went there all the same. In a university i would have been in a lecture hall with 300 others and would have got to know no one but every year there was around 50 in my class and i got to know most of them. The alumni are holding a march for this sometime soon. For purely selfish reasons it would make my degree look better if it got upgraded to a university.

[pete]

Good debate on the radio today. In the US Technology is not a dirty word (e.g. MIT) but just means college specialises in different things. We have enough Universities offering humanities so WIT would be better off trying to exceed as the best IT in the country offering more quality degrees. Universities can be slow to change due to history but relatively new ITs often have a clean slate.

My impression is that if you offer accreditation too easy you dilute the status this entails. There needs to be criteria that validates a University or an Institute of Technology. Upgrading all Regional Technical Colleges to Institutes overnight seems to have already devalued the best ones. Apparently when the UK upgraded all the Polytechs to Universities they devalued the worldwide status of existing Universities.

[OneRedArmy]

Good debate on the radio today. In the US Technology is not a dirty word (e.g. MIT) but just means college specialises in different things. We have enough Universities offering humanities so WIT would be better off trying to exceed as the best IT in the country offering more quality degrees. Universities can be slow to change due to history but relatively new ITs often have a clean slate.

My impression is that if you offer accreditation too easy you dilute the status this entails. There needs to be criteria that validates a University or an Institute of Technology. Upgrading all Regional Technical Colleges to Institutes overnight seems to have already devalued the best ones. Apparently when the UK upgraded all the Polytechs to Universities they devalued the worldwide status of existing Universities.

Pete I kind of agree (in that WIT and the other ITs should focus on a specialism rather than broaden) but ITs in the US are universities, which allows them much greater access to research grants, tenured staff and the other benefits of university status.

The upgrading of polys to unis in the UK was an unmitigated disaster and just created another tier of universities with no real benefit to students other that letters after their name.

[oldyouth]

;

Hardly just down the road to be fair! Maybe from west Waterford you might commute, but from the rest of Waterford, and particularly Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford there's no way a dedicated student (or a committed environmentalist) could spend so many hours a day travelling to and fro. Fair play, by the way, on ignoring the thread's important points and creating your own little arguments. ...... Anyway from the available sample I'd hazard a guess that UCC is full of tossers.

"The south-east has a strong case. It is the only major region without a university and the one with the lowest disposable income per capita. A university would act as a catalyst for growth and regeneration. It would boost the region from an economic, social and cultural perspective. And WIT itself has the academic range and the appropriate governance and strategic capability required for a university."

Excellent post

[pete]

Still don't see what renaming WIT as WU would achieve. Staff would strike as no long summer holidays.