O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[Not Brazil]

no in ireland pal, just like linfield

Well, there's a coincidence.

I live in Ireland too - pal!

Not sure what Linfield FC have to do with the discussion tho.

The flag, and anthem, of the Irish Republic is not, has never been, and never will be, my national flag and anthem.

True my man but how did you get from that to 'the Orange on the ROI flag represents the Dutch, Germans and Danish'? Surely a giant and very illogical step to make.

Now you're losing the plot youngirish.

What I said was:

"I'm just curious as to why the colour orange - youngirish seems to think that orange is more to do with Dutch, Germans and Danish people, than anything to do with people born and bred on this island"

This was after you posted:

"I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting."

You are showing some alarming inconsistencies in your arguments.

[Gather round]

As said before, I'm not obsessed about my identity, I don't need to be. Did you not read my last post or something? And no I'm not outraged-your muck spouting trash means nothing to me.

If you think hundreds of thousands of your fellow Irish live in an 'occupied' country- and, by implication, that many of them are occupiers- then actually you are obsessed by your identity, and theirs. Why not just accept we're all Irish and no-one is occupying anything unfairly, as aother posters have suggested?

You're pretending to be outraged, claiming my reply was disgusting. I mean, what do you expect, with digs about the occupied six?

But like I said, if all this is boring you, goodbye.

[ifk101]

Do you feel that the majority of attendees at Republic Of Ireland matches would be in favour of a, so called, United Ireland team?

I think the majority of ROI would consider it but their support of an United Ireland team would be conditioned by how favourable NI's support would be of such a move. As NI fans aren't supportive of an United Ireland, I think the majority of ROI fans would be against any moves to merge the two sides. But that's my opinion and I could easily be far of the mark with it.

[youngirish]

Now you're losing the plot youngirish.

What I said was:

"I'm just curious as to why the colour orange - youngirish seems to think that orange is more to do with Dutch, Germans and Danish people, than anything to do with people born and bred on this island"

This was after you posted:

"I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting."

You are showing some alarming inconsistencies in your arguments.

The inconsistency is unfortunately with you my friend. I still don't see how you can jump from a statement about the majority of the Coalitions forces at the Battle of the Boyne being Dutch, Danish and German (this is historical fact btw and not my opinion) to me stating that the orange on our flag was representative off them and not Protestant Irish people.

I'll explain it to you. The orange on our flag is used to represent the Protestant Irish who take orange from the colours of William of Orange. This doesn't mean that singing The Sash is ok in the present political climate. Let it go. The battle was 318 years ago.

[Supreme feet]

I think the majority of ROI would consider it but their support of an United Ireland team would be conditioned by how favourable NI's support would be of such a move. As NI fans aren't supportive of an United Ireland, I think the majority of ROI fans would be against any moves to merge the two sides. But that's my opinion and I could easily be far of the mark with it.

I would agree with the above. The separate identity of the two teams, and particularly, the two sets of fans, is seemingly irreconcilable. Every contentious debate here between interests of ROI and NI (Darron Gibson, United Ireland team, etc) seems to descend into a chaotic, infuriating and long-winded political debate. I wonder how fans of Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Slovenia and Croatia feel?!!

[janeymac]

I'm perfectly calm; you are deliberately making this up; it isn't mentioned in the agreement (source http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.as...199&docID=2931), nor in the budget which I've already quoted. 0.25% of the sum originally quoted to improve Derry airport to benefit travellers to Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan is hardly massive gift to NI- rather it's a joint investment in mutually beneficial facilities, which would of course be much cheaper than building a new airport on your side of the border.

Pal, I'm not making this up And by the way, I think its rather sensible of the British and Irish Gov. not to be throwing money down the toilet, but pooling resources, don't you? Oh and the completed Derry City Airport was 50% British, 50% Irish (as in ROI) money.

From the Dept. of Finance who usually talk about money down here!

The British and Irish Governments agreed at St Andrews on the importance of the economic dimension of the peace process. There is agreement on the need to focus on key drivers of future economic productivity and competitiveness.

The Irish Government has made available further funding of €580million (£400 million). This is in addition to the substantially increased allocation for the revised Investment Strategy for Northern Ireland provided by the Chancellor. This will fund an unprecedented package of infrastructure investment, including a major new roads programme to provide dual carriageway standard on routes within Northern Ireland serving the North West Gateway of Letterkenny/Derry and on the eastern seaboard corridor from Belfast to Larne.

This will promote economic prosperity and development in Northern Ireland, as well as benefit the island as a whole.
The Irish Government has also confirmed its willingness to agree with the new Executive substantial investment in North/South co-operation through opening up on an all-island basis of development funding in a range of areas as set out in the National Development Plan 2007-2013. This will be additional to existing planned projects and the contribution to the enhanced roads programme.

The Irish Government’s contribution will be made in the context of agreement with the restored Northern Ireland Executive.


http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

[CvilleRovers]

I think the majority of ROI would consider it but their support of an United Ireland team would be conditioned by how favourable NI's support would be of such a move. As NI fans aren't supportive of an United Ireland, I think the majority of ROI fans would be against any moves to merge the two sides. But that's my opinion and I could easily be far of the mark with it.

ye i reckon your well off the mark there meself

[Not Brazil]

I'll explain it to you. The orange on our flag is used to represent the Protestant Irish who take orange from the colours of William of Orange. This doesn't mean that singing The Sash is ok in the present political climate. Let it go. The battle was 318 years ago.

Good - we got there in the end.

So - the orange in the national flag of the Irish Republic is directly related to William Of Orange, and the significance of him in shaping Irish history.

As I said many posts ago, The Sash is about as relevant at a football match as The Fields Of Athenry.

Without any doubt, The Sash, and what it represents, is a significant part of Irish cultural/historical identity.

So much so, that orange forms part of the national flag of the Irish Republic.

[janeymac]

I've explained repeatedly above why I don't think it's surprising. Clearly you disagree, but I'm confident I'm representative of NI fans on this one. BTW I also explained why Ulster rugby's crowds over the last decade make it unnecessary for them to have a much larger stadium.

I'm very confident that you are representative of NI football fans - I wouldn't be confident though that the NI football team is representative of NI (and that is what a National team does, represent their country, not a few people in it) and doesn't even seem to get a whole lot of support from Unionist/Protestants either.

As I've explained above, the IFA is unrepresentative of NI supporters who have rejected the maze site by huge majority. I expect DUP politicians to agree with us, partly as an understandable response to their constituents and public opinion, partly also due to their politicking with Sinn Fein on the museum to the struggle issue.

Its rotten really that the IFA will probably do what is best for football, isn't it?

That's right, the NI supporters- who clearly number considerably more than 20,000, as you personally seem to be arguing above- will get their way in not having their team abolished. No reasonable person could argue otherwise. Contrary to your implication, the rest of their countrymen aren't losing anything.

20,000 is what I've read here is what you think you can get to a match, thats all. What is your support then?

[youngirish]

As I said many posts ago, The Sash is about as relevant at a football match as The Fields Of Athenry.

Without any doubt, The Sash, and what it represents, is a significant part of Irish cultural/historical identity.

I would compare it more closely in what it represents to me as an Irish Nationalist to how I think a song such as the Belfast Brigade would feel to Unionists. After all both are glorifying wars and conflict between the two communites.

If you believe Fields of Athenry to be in this same bracket you missed the boat to impartiality a long time ago.

[Not Brazil]

I would compare it more closely in what it represents to me as an Irish Nationalist to how I think a song such as the Belfast Brigade would feel to Unionists. After all, both are glorifying wars and conflict between the two communites.

If you believe Fields of Athenry to be in this same bracket you missed the boat to impartiality a long time ago.

In the same bracket in that both are culturally/historically significant on this island. To many people, events 300 odd years ago are significant because they secured their civil and religious liberties on this island - one of those liberties being the right to identify as they wish, without someone else telling them they are misguided, wrong, making it up etc.

I don't get all indignant about a song which talks of rebellion against the Crown - if it is an Irish nationalist song, then you will clearly see how it might be divisive.

It doesn't bother me - of no real relevance in my day to day life.

You see, you (nor I) can have it both ways.

By the way, did you know that the battlecry of the Belfast Brigade was - I kid you not - "No Surrender"?

[Gather round]

Pal, I'm not making this up And by the way, I think its rather sensible of the British and Irish Gov. not to be throwing money down the toilet, but pooling resources, don't you? Oh and the completed Derry City Airport was 50% British, 50% Irish (as in ROI) money

You are making it up. You threw in a figure of €4 billion, but despite repeated prompting haven't offered any evidence for it.

From the Dept. of Finance who usually talk about money down here!

Which country's departments of finance and the taoiseach do you think I was quoting from above?

I wouldn't be confident though that the NI football team is representative of NI (and that is what a National team does, represent their country, not a few people in it) and doesn't even seem to get a whole lot of support from Unionist/Protestants either

You'd be wrong, not for the first time on this thread. The NI football team clearly has a support much larger than the average or even maximum crowd- not everyone goes to every- or even any- game, many who watch on TV or follow games through other media are still fans. Those media give the team widespread coverage, which they wouldn't if there were only a dwindling few thousand fans. You could equally and pointlessly argue that the RoI's total support grew in recent years simply because Croke is bigger than Lansdowne before and after.

Its rotten really that the IFA will probably do what is best for football, isn't it?

No, it's welcome even if they only and belatedly react to events, rather than arguing for a stadium in Belfast and a saving to the taxpayer as the fans have suggested. But hey, they're arrogant, out of touch, and can't manage basic arithmetic. I can see why you support them.

20,000 is what I've read here is what you think you can get to a match, thats all. What is your support then?

Not from me, it isn't- don't you actually read what others write? I said between 20,000 and 25,000 was a sensible capacity, not a maximum conceivable attendance. Our support in recent years has varied from less than 7,000 to a sold-out Windsor; if it redeveloped, or a new build, held 25,000, I wouldn't be surprised if it still fluctuated depending on form, opposition and other factors like weather. As it always has. These figures are lower than the RoI, I readily accept, but comparable to many similar sized and larger countries throughout Europe. For example- 4,000 watched our game in Estonia, and about 5,000 last time we were in Switzerland. Even in competition games, only 12,000 watched our visit to Vienna in 2005. And I well remember watching you play Wales in Cardiff on a freezing night in 1997, less than 8,000 there.
I think we could regularly manage 20-25,000, but for a one-off game 50,000 might demand tickets. They'll be disappointed, such is life.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I don't get all indignant about a song which talks of rebellion against the Crown - if it is an Irish nationalist song, then you will clearly see how it might be divisive.

:

Oh come on!! It talks of rebelling against the crown in the context of stealing corn (which was being shamefully exported out of the country by the empire while it's Irish subjects starved) from a landlord to feed the subject's child, it can hardly be described as a rebel song ffs.....

There's plenty of songs reagarding battles and uprisings that can be compared to the sash (altough they don't tend to be sung at the football) but the fields of atherny is a famine song, nothing more.

[Not Brazil]

Oh come on!! It talks of rebelling against the crown in the context of stealing corn (which was being shamefully exported out of the country by the empire while it's Irish subjects starved) from a landlord to feed the subject's child, it can hardly be described as a rebel song ffs.....

There's plenty of songs reagarding battles and uprisings that can be compared to the sash (altough they don't tend to be sung at the football) but the fields of atherny is a famine song, nothing more.

Like I said, I have no problem with The Fields Of Athenry. Nice piece of music, as it happens.

It is a cultural/historical song - just like The Sash is.

Curious tho - what's the famine and the empire got to do with football?

[youngirish]

In the same bracket in that both are culturally/historically significant on this island. To many people, events 300 odd years ago are significant because they secured their civil and religious liberties on this island - one of those liberties being the right to identify as they wish, without someone else telling them they are misguided, wrong, making it up etc.

C'mon NB William of Orange was hardly a promoter of civil or religious liberties when he helped re-establish and promote a system whereby the vast majority of the indigineous population of the island were effectively denied these rights because of his actions. Instead they were to be dominated and controlled by the relatively sparse minority for their own benefit.

In modern terms look at him as similar to Pieter Botha in South Africa though I'll agree that modern comparisons are not always accurate when describing people's actions in the distant past for a number of reasons. However he was certainly no Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi. Of this I'm sure. I think you need to read a few more impartial history books to be honest and not only the ones approved by the Stormont Government Educational Authority pre 1973.

I agree it's ironic that the Belfast Brigade's motto was no surrender. Says a lot about how ludicrous the entire situation can look from the outside sometimes.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Like I said, I have no problem with The Fields Of Athenry. Nice piece of music, as it happens.

It is a cultural/historical song - just like The Sash is.

Curious tho - what's the famine and the empire got to do with football?

I'd consider a song glorifying a military battle (not that there's anything wrong with that, we've written plenty) a different facet of culture then one regarding the famine, it's a ludicrous comparison. Your implication was that it was a rebel song because of one line about rebelling against 'the famine and the crown'. Plainly it isn't.

Does a song have to be about football to be sung at a match now? Why did Liverpool fans sing non football related Beatles songs in the 60's? Why sing 'Abide with me' before the cup final? Stadia would be pretty quiet (quieter?) if the only songs allowed had something to do with football......

We sing it coz it's a good tune and has a rousing chorus that everybody knows. And it sounds great being sung by 40,000 plus.....

[EalingGreen]

I can't remember the last time I heard anyone sing "The Sash" at an NI football game, home or away. It's so last (17th?) Century as to be utterly irrelevant...

I'm very confident that you are representative of NI football fans - I wouldn't be confident though that the NI football team is representative of NI (and that is what a National team does, represent their country, not a few people in it) and doesn't even seem to get a whole lot of support from Unionist/Protestants either.



Its rotten really that the IFA will probably do what is best for football, isn't it?



20,000 is what I've read here is what you think you can get to a match, thats all. What is your support then?

Janeymac,
You seem to be determined to tell us what size our support is/should be and by extrapolation, what ideal size any new football stadium should be. As evidence, you cite inter alia the IFA CEO's lobbying for the Maze, the attendance at an Ulster rugby Final in 1999 and GAA crowds.

No harm, but you clearly don't know the first thing you're talking about here.
Under its CEO, Howard Wells, the official IFA view is one of support for the 44k Maze. However, Wells is effectively a Government employee (salary paid by DCAL), who wants a stadium on his CV, for his next job, regardless of whether it's in the best interests of the IFA. Meanwhile, other IFA figures are keeping stumm, since that organisation is potless, there is no alternative to the Maze in sight, and the Maze may be useful as a bargaining tool in our contractual dispute with Linfield over Windsor.
However, I am increasingly confident that the Maze will NOT be built, in which case we're back to square one. At which point, the overwhelming majority of NI fans feel a stadium in Belfast of around 25k capacity (with the otion to expand if demand justifies) is the ideal solution for the near/medium term. Personally, I'd like to see something bigger, but I am happy to go along with the consensus of my fellow NI fans.
Insofar as you have an interest in the matter, you might be advised to do the same.

P.S. For all that Ulster attracted 50k to Lansdowne in 1999 (including me), the simple fact is that when they recently revamped Ravenhill, they actually reduced the overall capacity to around 12,500, in order to accommodate corporate facilities (Exec.Boxes etc).
They therefore feel that this is adequate for all but two or three Heineken Cup matches per year - assuming they continue to qualify for it.
Their support for the Maze was purely because they were dependant upon a Government grant to refurbish Ravenhill, so didn't want to antagonise them and jeopardise the grant. Unofficially, the Ulster Blazers couldn't care less about the Maze. And Ulster rugby fans are actively opposed - in so far as anyone can gauge.

P.P.S. Since theirs is an entirely different "constituency" from football's, GAA crowds in Ulster are utterly irrelevant to the debate as to what size an NI football stadium should be.

[Not Brazil]

C'mon NB William of Orange was hardly a promoter of civil or religious liberties when he helped re-establish and promote a system whereby the vast majority of the indigineous population of the island were effectively denied these rights because of his actions. Instead they were to be dominated and controlled by the relatively sparse majority for their own benefit.

In modern terms look at him as similar to Pieter Botha in South Africa though I'll agree that modern comparisons are not always accurate when describing people's actions in the distant past for a number of reasons. However he was certainly no Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi. Of this I'm sure. I think you need to read a few more impartial history books to be honest and not only the ones approved by the Stormont Government Educational Authority pre 1973.

I agree it's ironic that the Belfast Brigade's motto was no surrender. Says a lot about how ludicrous the entire situation can look from the outside sometimes.

Well, there are differing viewpoints as to the historical context of what went on over 300 years ago.

What's for sure is that, for some people, those events are of enormous historical andcultural significance.

Indeed, so significant that "Orangeism" is represented on the national flag of the Irish Republic.

I care little for 300 year old battles - or long gone famines.

My battle is to ensure my family is safe and sound, and that I do what's best for them by way of their future.

On your last point, I find the anomilies of irish history/culture to be quite interesting!

For example, how many of those who would like to do unspeakable things to The Pope, know and appreciate that King Billy's ranks at The Boyne were swollen by devotees of the Catholic Church, complete with Papal flags?

How many of those who pledge allegiance to the Ulster Banner know the history of the Red Hand?

I often wonder.

When we begin to respect the cultural differences, and differences of identity, of the people who share this island, we'll be a long way down the road to ending division.

We are not "all the same".

Two peoples, equally proud of our identity - neither of which can be defeated into giving their identity up.

The challenge is, can we find a peace to live together with that acceptance -without denigrating everything the other believes in in terms of their, heartfelt, identity?

[EalingGreen]

I'd consider a song glorifying a military battle (not that there's anything wrong with that, we've written plenty) a different facet of culture then one regarding the famine, it's a ludicrous comparison. Your implication was that it was a rebel song because of one line about rebelling against 'the famine and the crown'. Plainly it isn't.

Does a song have to be about football to be sung at a match now? Why did Liverpool fans sing non football related Beatles songs in the 60's? Why sing 'Abide with me' before the cup final? Stadia would be pretty quiet (quieter?) if the only songs allowed had something to do with football......

We sing it coz it's a good tune and has a rousing chorus that everybody knows. And it sounds great being sung by 40,000 plus.....

I don't know of one NI fan who gives a stuff about TFOA being sung at ROI games - even with an "Up the RA" add on. It's nothing whatever to do with us or our support.
As for The Sash, if a few NI fans got p issed in a pub in Cardiff and started singing it, that is regrettable, but still hardly relevant to the debate, since it hasn't (to my knowledge) been sung at an NI games for many years.
And as for making some sort of comparison between the two songs, in order to prove some sort of point, that is utterly silly, and no addition whatever to this thread.
If you've got issues over this sort of thing, why don't you take them to a more appropriate forum, such as Slugger O'Toole. Or your nearest Primary School playground...

When we begin to respect the cultural differences, and differences of identity, of the people who share this island, we'll be a long way down the road to ending division.

We are not "all the same".

Two peoples, equally proud of our identity - neither of which han be defeated into giving their identity up.

The challenge is, can we find a peace to live together with that acceptance -without denigrating everything the other believes in in terms of identity?

Quite. But in the meantime, I'm rather more concerned about what we (NI) can do to improve our away record for the WC2010 Qualifying games ahead.

After all, if anything is clear from this whole thread, it is that Ireland currently has not one but two international football teams, a situation which is not going to change anytime soon.

And the sooner everyone in Ireland accepts that and gets back to supporting his/her own team, the better.

[janeymac]

You are making it up. You threw in a figure of €4 billion, but despite repeated prompting haven't offered any evidence for it.

Which country's departments of finance and the taoiseach do you think I was quoting from above?

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished. Have they finished upgrading the road from Belfast to Larne recently? When they have you can thank us

Well I'm quoting from the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen (who will be Taoiseach) next month. Minister of Finance = Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ireland is a Soverign State and would need a specific Dept. & Minister to look after its accounts. We also have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, Min. for Tourism (in fact we have loads of Ministers) - but the boss is the Taoiseach.

Please look at this link. Notice it says Department of Finance - An Roinn Airgeadais (hint that it is Irish perhaps!).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

You'd be wrong, not for the first time on this thread. The NI football team clearly has a support much larger than the average or even maximum crowd- not everyone goes to every- or even any- game, many who watch on TV or follow games through other media are still fans. Those media give the team widespread coverage, which they wouldn't if there were only a dwindling few thousand fans. You could equally and pointlessly argue that the RoI's total support grew in recent years simply because Croke is bigger than Lansdowne before and after.

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

No, it's welcome even if they only and belatedly react to events, rather than arguing for a stadium in Belfast and a saving to the taxpayer as the fans have suggested. But hey, they're arrogant, out of touch, and can't manage basic arithmetic. I can see why you support them.

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Not from me, it isn't- don't you actually read what others write? I said between 20,000 and 25,000 was a sensible capacity, not a maximum conceivable attendance. Our support in recent years has varied from less than 7,000 to a sold-out Windsor; if it redeveloped, or a new build, held 25,000, I wouldn't be surprised if it still fluctuated depending on form, opposition and other factors like weather. As it always has. These figures are lower than the RoI, I readily accept, but comparable to many similar sized and larger countries throughout Europe. For example- 4,000 watched our game in Estonia, and about 5,000 last time we were in Switzerland. Even in competition games, only 12,000 watched our visit to Vienna in 2005. And I well remember watching you play Wales in Cardiff on a freezing night in 1997, less than 8,000 there.
I think we could regularly manage 20-25,000, but for a one-off game 50,000 might demand tickets. They'll be disappointed, such is life.

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?