O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[ifk101]

In fairness its how many people? 3? Out of how many that have played for them in the last how many years?

Yes and it's the topic of discussion in this thread. Everything has a beginning.

Ffs Im sure youd find 3 Irish players who'd think itd be a great idea if we merged with England cos they live there.....but we wouldnt be taking them seriously either.

That's for another thread.

[Gather round]

Well, I suppose if you are determined to keep it the way it is now, you just ain't going to get the numbers

Er...NI fans are arguing for a new or redeveloped stadium that holds up to twice the capacity of Windsor Park. But there's no point building a white elephant three or four times the size- it woulde be a waste of money, and experience going back decades suggests crowds likely to fill it would happen only very occasionally. Let's be realistic: countries with less than 2 million people tend not to win the World Cup...

Ulster Rugby are at the bottom of the Magners League but still can get 10,000 ever week

When Ulster were top of the Celtic League, they didn't get significantly more than that- certainly not to the extent that they needed to urgently redevelop Ravenhill, or borrow Croke, Lansdowne or the Maracana. They got a big crowd for a one off cup final nine years ago. Nice, but not a sensible basis for expansion on the scale you suggest.

I'm surprised NI media hasn't been keeping you up-to-date on how fantastic the two southern provinces have been doing, seeing as they keep you well informed on how badly the national team is

You shouldn't be- I know how Leinster and Munster are doing. I don't dwell on it, because it isn't relevant to anything I've mentioned on the thread.

GAA fans pay tax as well - since it appears there are a lot more than them, maybe they should have a greater say in the stadium

They have as much say as anyone. They are of course entitled to support a shared sports stadium at Long Kesh, but they can't reasonably insist on it if other sports oppose the project. Football and rugby fans have made clear their opposition to the LK site. Most comment now suggests unionist politics as a whole will withdraw support soon.

or maybe you think they are all work dodgers

Why would I think that? I certainly haven't implied it, again it's completely irrelevant to anything I've said. Please stop stirring, it's childish.

everyone knows that NI is an economic basket case and completely reliant on the south of England taxpayer to keep it afloat

Economic growth in NI to end 2006 (last year of collated figures) was 5.6%- the second highest of Britain's twelve regions. Manufacturing exports increased by 10% in 2006/07. Growth of the economy in 2008 is estimated at 2.4% by Oxford Economics (the ESRI estimates the equivalent figure for the Republic at 1.8%). No-one pretends that there aren't serious problems, both local and global, but 'basket-case' is just empty cliche. (Source: http://www.detini.gov.uk/cgi-bin/downutildoc?id=2158)

We're throwing in a fair few bob as well to help ya out (4 billion?)

No you aren't. Stop lying, please. The Republic's entire budget estimate for international co-operation is only €813 million in 2008 (source http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downlo...dgetTables.pdf)

Sure - but since they are minors they will get picked

What does this mean? I said that youth players in NI representative teams were more likely to get professional contracts than those who weren't chosen. And once chosen by NI, they're likely to stay with us. If you have any evidence against this, let's see it?

do you think it would be a good plan to avoid picking kids from nationalist backgrounds in case they 'defect'?

No. Again, nothing I've said implies this. I want NI schools and youth teams to pick the best players available. I think anyone playing in a youth international side (ie after leaving school) shouldn't be eligible for any other country thereafter. I don't expect more than a trickle of players away, as I said- but time will tell.

See no evil, hear no evil, there is no evil, right?

Wrong. You just made up a story to illustrate the hypothetical effect of an unrealistic event. Please don't imply I'm downplaying what happened to Neil Lennon.

So Pat Jennings & Martin O'Neill are comedians now - and
George Best was (he was a good laugh mind)

Well, like I said, anyone who argues for our team to be abolished can **** off. Couldn't give a toss if they won the European cup, scored 200 League goals, did a good job representing other players or have an eponymous airport- no-one is beyond criticism. I haven't seen any direct quotes from O'Neill and Jennings- I asked for them on page two, way above- but in principle I apply the same criticism to anyone who puts the argument.

The difference was that our lads helped us qualify for World cup finals and their lads helped them into.. footballing obscurity

You're a bit bit behind the times alas. We're both in footballing obscurity at the moment.

And, as such, it's only right that we politely consider their proposal and analyse what NI have to offer

Ha ha.I thought you'd made up your mind 200 posts ago, when you rejected the idea? Not that it's stopped you moaning since that the thread features the limited number of usual suspects. What did you expect, hordes of balaclava-wearing NI fans to arrive hailing it as a brilliant, novel idea?

[ifk101]

Ha ha.I thought you'd made up your mind 200 posts ago, when you rejected the idea? Not that it's stopped you moaning since that the thread features the limited number of usual suspects. What did you expect, hordes of balaclava-wearing NI fans to arrive hailing it as a brilliant, novel idea?

I've made my mind (and it's not going to change BTW) but I wrote "we" for those that haven't. So relax.

[geysir]

They have as much say as anyone. They are of course entitled to support a shared sports stadium at Long Kesh, but they can't reasonably insist on it if other sports oppose the project. Football and rugby fans have made clear their opposition to the LK site. Most comment now suggests unionist politics as a whole will withdraw support soon.

Are you recycling that misinformation that it's the GAA forcing the issue on the Maze location against the real wishes of the other 2 sporting bodies?
The sporting bodies, UR, IFA and Ulster GAA are united in their strong support for the Maze location. The GAA are not insisting that the other 2 bodies agree with them.
Popular support for the location etc. from soccer fans is another issue altogether.

[Gather round]

Are you recycling that misinformation that it's the GAA forcing the issue on the Maze location against the real wishes of the other 2 sporting bodies?

I'm not misinforming anything, recycled or otherwise. Although admittedly I could have put that better. I have no quarrel with the GAA- they can argue for public or private funded facilities as they see fit. My gripe is the unholy alliance between the IFA goons and Sinn Fein, who have been saying recently that they will veto any stadium not at the Maze site (including any private-funded stadium in Belfast, through the planning system).

If, as I expect, the DUP quietly abandon any support they've given to the Maze project, it won't happen. I very much doubt the GAA would want to go ahead on the site in those circumstances.

I'm not hidebound by the real wishes of the IFA. They're unrepresentative of the fans and have no clout to take on politicians. They'll follow decisions made elsewhere.

[geysir]

Your totally unrelated gripe has nothing to do with the statement that you say you could have put better.

You stated that the GAA cannot reasonably insist on the stadium issue if the other sports oppose.
The other 2 sporting bodies are at present not opposed, as of yet support the Maze proposal in its entirety and as of yet have come out wholeheartedly in support of the location etc.
In fact the IFA are on public record as being more trenchant on the Maze location issue.

In that context your statement could have been put better in that that any of the sporting bodies cannot reasonably insist on the stadium plans if the other sporting bodies disagree.

[Gather round]

Your totally unrelated gripe has nothing to do with the statement that you say you could have put better

It's hardly unrelated. My gripe is with Sinn Fein and the IFA; both of them will need to react if, as I expect, the DUP pull the plug; the GAA will also need to react.

In that context your statement could have been put better in that that any of the sporting bodies cannot reasonably insist on the stadium plans if the other sporting bodies disagree

I'll meet you halfway. None of the three sports can reasonably insist on a public funded stadium if the other sports disagree.

I know that more than 80% of NI fans oppose the Maze Stadium. I note your oft-repeated counter that the IFA disagree, but as I've said I expect them to be bypassed following a combination of public pressure and political manoeuvring.

If I'm wrong, so be it. See ye at the Stadium of Sh*ite

[EalingGreen]

We finished 2nd in all our WC finals groups. We finished ahead of Holand on the drawing of lots in 1990. In 1994 we finished behind Mexico on goals scored but ahead of Italy on direct match result.

Would seem logical, but I went by FIFA's own Website. Perhaps you better have a word:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive...lts/index.html

[kingdomkerry]

But thats not footballing reasons though.

And its easy for us to be magnamimous when we will always be the major partner in these teams. Even reading through this thread people think they might get one player in.

So what would Northern Irish football fans have to support?

They lose their team, lose their identity, with what benefits for them? The possibility of a team that they dont feel represents them getting to a major finals?

What are you on about? They would loose their team yeah but so would we. But it would be for the better good. Many people from the north support Ireland in the rugby

[Lionel Ritchie]

What are you on about? They would loose their team yeah but so would we. But it would be for the better good. Many people from the north support Ireland in the rugby

...So, just to clarify, you'll be quite happy for us to play under a neutral flag ...maybe St. Patricks saltire or a gold harp on a green flag maybe? ...and with a neutral anthem? ...Irelands Call or something?

[kingdomkerry]

yeah no problem, my preferred choice would be two anthems and two flags including the tricolour and amhrain na bhfiann but I would have no problem with going neutral

[micls]

What are you on about? They would loose their team yeah but so would we.

Would we really. How many people would be against an AI team down here? Its something the majority of our fans want. Also how many of our players would lose their places? 1 maybe 2. So we'd bascially be supporting the same team. Theyd have maybe one or two of 'their' players to support

But it would be for the better good.

According to who? Whats this better good?Maybe a very slightly improved chance of making a tournament

Many people from the north support Ireland in the rugby

I have no idea how many people up north support rugby. I dunno if they were for or against the team etc. But I do know the NI fans now are against a UI football team.

So why should we have one?

We can pick any player on the island that wants to play for us. They can pick anyone from the North who wants to play for them. I dont see whats wrong with this arrangement

Irelands Call ?

Please no.....

[EalingGreen]

Keep clinging on to that quarter final in 1958 man when about ten teams in the world took the wc and international football as a whole seriously. It's in no way comparable to even a second round appearance in a modern world cup.

NI qualified for 1958 from a Group which included Italy and Portugal (the only time Italy have ever failed to qualify for a World Cup Finals, before or since, btw)

In the Finals, our fellow Group members were West Germany (reigning World Champions), Argentina and Czechoslovakia.

We were eventually eliminated by France, after a series of crippling injuries, compounded by a ridiculous (overland) travel schedule and an extra match over all the other teams (play-off).

So if there were really only 10 teams who took football seriously in those days , we certainly played our share of them. (Btw, were ROI one of those ten teams? Perhaps not, seeing as they failed to qualify...)

As for the team itself, they were also British Champions jointly with England both in 1957-58 and 1958-59, when in their six games they drew twice with Scotland, drew with and beat Wales, and drew with and beat England (at Wembley). Incidentally, all three of those opponents were to qualify for the 1958 World Cup, where the greatest-ever Wales team also reached the Quarter Finals.

The NI team of the period was built around the four world class players, Gregg, Blanchflower, Peacock and McIlroy:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/12/harry-gregg.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...nchflower.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/...e-beacock.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/...y-mcilroy.html
They were ably supported by top class players such as Bingham, Keith, McMichael and Cunningham, all with top flight English clubs at the time, plus McParland of Aston Villa, who scored five times to make him the all-time leading Irish goalscorer in World Cup Finals.
In fact, if never the strongest squad, there is a strong case for saying that this was the finest Irish team ever to leave our shores.

You only reached the QF once btw. More manipulated facts from our friends up north.

In 1982, there was no "Quarter Finals", as such. Instead, after we topped our Initial Group , 12 teams were divided into a Second Stage (four Groups of three teams). The four winners of each Second Stage Group went straight through to the Semi-Finals. Therefore, we qualified for the nearest equivalent of the Quarter Finals stage.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive...lts/index.html

So manipulate it how you like, in reaching the last 8 and the last 12, NI have secured 3 Finals victories, whereas ROI have won two games in qualifying for the last 8 once and the last 16 twice.

[kingdomkerry]

How many people would be against an AI team down here? Its something the majority of our fans want.

I know this already.

Also how many of our players would lose their places?

Id say 2 or 3 at the moment. Do you not think the best possible team should be chosen regardless of what part of Ireland they come from. Again using the rugby as an example Ulster rarely have more than one or two on the starting 15. Why because the best 15 is picked and only 1 or 2 happen to be from Ulster.

So we'd bascially be supporting the same team.

We would not be supporting the same team we would be supporting a team representing EVERYONE in Ireland.

They'd have maybe one or two of 'their' players to support

So what. Whos to say in another era we would'nt have only one or two of our players to support. It would'nt bother me, there all Irish could'nt care less what part

According to who? Whats this better good?Maybe a very slightly improved chance of making a tournament

According to me and anybody with half a brain. Why do you ask a question when you already know the answer

[EalingGreen]

Not sure why some supporters of Worthington’s team find it strange that Ireland field players not born in the country, every team in Europe has done so for many years, including the North.

During the 90’s the North could have fielded a full team of English born players, and at times had no less than six such players in the starting eleven.

Ian Dowie, Kevin Wilson, Trevor wood, , Kingsley Black, Kevin Horlock, Jon McCarthy, Ian Nolan, Iain Jenkins, Danny Sonner,Mark Williams Adrain Coote & Lawrie Sanchez are all English born and represented the North during the period.

And that’s apart from Zambian born brothers Jeff & Jim Whitley, Norwegian Tony Capaldi and German born Maik Taylor.

The difference was that our lads helped us qualify for World cup finals and their lads helped them into.. footballing obscurity.

No FIFA or UEFA regulations were broken by either team.

Since you have a very selective way with facts, the difference in the respective use of 1st/2nd generation players by NI and ROI is much greater than you imply.
For one thing, we rarely had more than 3 or 4 such players in any given team.
And with the exception of Dowie, Wilson and Williams, few of those you list were prominent players for us. For example, Wood made a solitary second half appearance as sub against Liechtenstein, Coote made one start in a friendly with Canada (plus five caps as sub), Jenkins gained six caps, four of them friendlies, and Sanchez got three caps, as did Jim Whitley. Sonner gained 13 caps over a 7 year period, 11 of them friendlies.
By contrast, ROI teams of the period often had a majority of 1st/2nd generation players, including many who were stalwarts who gained dozens of caps.
Further, by talking about the "90's" and listing 16 players, you add to the misleading impression. In fact, Sanchez's three caps were in the 80's, Jeff Whitley made just one start and three sub appearances during the 90's, Maik Taylor made his debut in 1999 and Capaldi made his debut in 2004. Therefore, these were 16 players who appeared over a period of nearer 20 years than 10.
Finally, we relied much less heavily on the "granny rule" than ROI, since all but 4 (5?) of those 16 players had a parent from NI.

P.S. You failed to mention it (again), but did you ever actually see any of those players play for NI at Windsor? You made accusations of crowd misbehaviour by NI fans a few posts back, but seem strangely reticent in providing eye-witness accounts...

Nobody gives a sh1te what NI did a many many years ago. The title of this thread is'nt "History of NI football"

Young Irish made a disparaging and baseless remark about NI's 1958 team. I was only putting the record straight.

If you're not interested, ignore it. One of the reasons why I am so passionate about my team and don't want to see it subsumed into some artificially "united" team, is because of our proud 128 year history - "Original and Best".

[kingdomkerry]

How could you be proud of what ye have a reputation for!

Original and best my arse!!!

Young Irish made a disparaging and baseless remark about NI's 1958 team. I was only putting the record straight.

If you're not interested, ignore it. One of the reasons why I am so passionate about my team and don't want to see it subsumed into some artificially "united" team, is because of our proud 128 year history - "Original and Best".

Young Irish made a disparaging and baseless remark about NI's 1958 team. I was only putting the record straight.

If you're not interested, ignore it. One of the reasons why I am so passionate about my team and don't want to see it subsumed into some artificially "united" team, is because of our proud 128 year history - "Original and Best".

Thats generally what I do with your posts

[co. down green]

For one thing, we rarely had more than 3 or 4 such players in any given team

Simply responding to a couple of your buddies who seemed oblivious to the fact that your team has never had a issue using players born in England, Zambia, Norway, Germany or wherever. For example the team beaten 4-1 by Finland in 99 contained no less than eight such players.

But fair play to your management team , they were working within the guide lines set out by FIFA.

You failed to mention it (again), but did you ever actually see any of those players play for NI at Windsor?

As I recall, Ian Dowie, Kingsley Black & Kevin Wilson all made an appearance when we qualified for the 94 World Cup at Windsor in November 93. Thanks again to your sponsors Vauxhall for providing the Belfast Boys In Green with six free complimentary tickets for the Railway stand that evening.

[geysir]

kk, you have a peculiar way of doing the ignoring bit

The OWC like to denigrate our team for having greater use of dual nationals when most of the dual nationals, that they tried out, just weren't good enough to be played

[Not Brazil]

How could you be proud of what ye have a reputation for!

Fans have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World Football.

[youngirish]

No you aren't. Stop lying, please. The Republic's entire budget estimate for international co-operation is only €813 million in 2008 (source http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downlo...dgetTables.pdf)

Why should we be giving you anything? After all we're the underdeveloped, uneducated, papist South that wasn't worth dragging through the industrial revolution?

Didn't quite work out that one did it? Another laughable policy enacted by the Great British Empire. The great international pirates of modern history. They stole the riches from everywhere they went until there was nothing left.

Fans have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World Football.

Don't be so foolish. I've seen a number of videos on youtube in fairly recent years of NI fans singing the sash before games. Cardiff away to Wales was one that springs to mind. All I'll say is things have improved but there's a long road ahead of you.

We'll see how far you've come when next you play us in Belfast. Not as far as you think I'm guessing and you've still a few years before then to improve further.

In 1982, there was no "Quarter Finals", as such. Instead, after we topped our Initial Group , 12 teams were divided into a Second Stage (four Groups of three teams). The four winners of each Second Stage Group went straight through to the Semi-Finals. Therefore, we qualified for the nearest equivalent of the Quarter Finals stage.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive...lts/index.html

So manipulate it how you like, in reaching the last 8 and the last 12, NI have secured 3 Finals victories, whereas ROI have won two games in qualifying for the last 8 once and the last 16 twice.

I said you didn't reach the Quarter Finals as one of the other NI fans posted previously. Note to EG, a Quarter Final means that there's only 8 teams left in the competition not 12. If we take your results in the second group stage as a whole then the highest you could claim that NI finished was tenth overall in the competition so you still wouldn't have made the last 8 on merit.

Finally if you are seriously stating that a quarter final appearance in 1958 should be considered with the same merit as a quarter final appearance in the relatively modern game then you are deluding yourself my friend. Have a look at how many teams actually even bothered trying to qualify in 1958 compared to today. The USSR alone must have removed over a dozen countries from qualification and Yugoslavia about 5. Large areas of the World didn't bother taking football seriously (Africa, Asia and Northern and Central America). The quality of the players was in no way comparable either to the quality today.