Oh ffs! I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I despise the people who, with their moronic behaviour (e.g. NS), give our detractors an excuse to denigrate us for every bloody problem which society throws at us.Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Its happened at parkhead and away on tours, also fans policing fans. Its quite simple. If you are saying that your own people cant control them then this might be the actual problem
Gather I think you missed the point, I know about the initiatives and so and so, thats not what I was getting at. EG though, was clearer in his own statement, though his conclusion still came back to the same point I was getting at. He simply states "ah sure just let them", which is rather sad considering he spent 4 paras before that explaining all the "good" he beleives in.
If I thought there was an effective way of preventing this without causing even greater trouble, then I would support it.
More to the point, if I thought that it was so serious in its effect that the only way to deal with it would be to close the stands completely and play behind closed doors, then I would. But it isn't. It's a deplorable, 2 second knee-jerk reaction by a few cretins, of the type to be found in every football support, including yours.
I have been to NI matches, home and away, with friends of both denominations and none. Invariably, it is the Prods who get more worked up/embarrassed about this NS issue, since the RC fans can see the bigger picture.
And that bigger picture is that huge amounts of good work is being done to make the matchday experience as enjoyable as possible for everyone. Moreover, that work is increasingly being successful, which is why it has been recognised internationally by several respected, credible and impartial authorities. This despite it being a Work in Progress, which may never be 100% effective.
In the meantime, we will endure the jibes and sniping of people like Kingdom Kerry and Co.Down Green, since we expect little better. But I would hope that people like you might show a little more understanding of what is happening, instead of picking up on every single transgression, no matter how relatively unimportant and/or intractable.
I was once amongst a group of NI fans exiting the East Stand of Landsdowne Road who were pelted with stones by a gang of hoolies who were waiting for us, with not a Garda to be seen anywhere (they were too busy keeping the NI terrace fans behind, with dogs and riot gear etc).
I don't hold that against the average ROI fan, or even against the Gardai, since I accept that sometimes these things happen. But neither do I bang on about it endlessly in order to excoriate ROI fans, or in some way exonerate ourselves for our own shortcomings.
If there is ever to be a truly "United" Ireland football team, it is going to require mutual respect and understanding from BOTH sets of fans, not just the one. Sadly, if my experience on this Message Board is in any way representative, ROI fans have at least as far to travel down that road as we do.
P.S. For all those inspired by the above rant to respond by bleating on about "Neil Lennon bla bla bla", don't bother, we've heard it all before.
well said that man.
Forget about results from 20 years ago, and which players wold be good enough to make the team, and what percent of the population of Northern Ireland is whatever religion - the above quote is the key point in making any justifiable case for a "United Ireland" team.
Last edited by osarusan; 11/04/2008 at 5:04 PM.
My mistake - in quickly scanning the record, I didn't notice that you had qualified for the last 16. I think I overlooked it due to your having finished 3rd in your qualifying Group.
Talking of which, NI have won one of their Groups (1982), something which ROI cannot claim. And we've still won more matches in WC Finals...
If you really mean the "modern" game, then you might wish to refer to the most recent competitive matches (Euro2008), when NI came a sight closer to qualifying than ROI.
And as for the next competition, WC2010, I am as happy with our prospects of qualifying (possible, but unlikely) as I would were I an ROI fan (possible, but unlikely).
And even if, to bring this thread back on-topic, our chances of Qualification were to be improved by throwing our lot in with ROI, I think I'd rather not, thank you very much - success is so much the sweeter when you've earned it by your own efforts, don't you think?
Last edited by dahamsta; 04/06/2008 at 10:03 AM.
Call me mad like, but I'm not sure that the constant, broadbrushing, denegration of Northern Ireland fans by a not insignificant number of ROI fans, in any way advances the prospects of a truly unified team on this island.
Heaven knows, it might actually account for some people disrespecting the National Anthem of The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, with their (extremely insecure) "No Surrender" add on.
Oh - and whatever Northern Ireland acheive (or don't) on the pitch - I'll be supporting them.
I have no interest whatsoever in merging with anyone else - be that an All Ireland team, or an All United Kingdom team.
If it was only about supporting who wins international football matches, I'd support Brazil.
But it's not - it's about identity and belonging.
I was born in Northern Ireland - funnily enough, I therefore support Northern Ireland.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Who's we ?
eg, pick your teddy bear out of the corner and calm down, you've had a long day on foot.ie, maybe its time to take a break from the keyboard.
Trust you to introduce base sectarianism into the discussion.
Can you not get it into your head that it's nothing to do with where people say their prayers?
I doubt 44% of the total population in Northern Ireland actually attend any church regularly.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
About ten people have posted in this thread since page 3. Says it all really.
Review of 3 surveys on national identity in the UK
Constitutional change and identity
NI surveys
Ni Life and Times Survey
That should get you to IDENTITY
surveys I looked at were
IDENTITY: National identity
IDENT1: How would you describe yourself?
IDENT2: What is the second most important way you would describe yourself?
IDENT3: What is the third most important way you would describe yourself?
Interestingly even on the 3rd choice, to Protestants, being Irish was not amongst their selected choices.
Unionist as in maintaining the allegiance to the UK. Unionist as in the identity. Maybe Irish Unionist is a better description.
I am not meaning UUP or DUP Or PUP, as in the political form of Unionism.
It's a generalization which you will have to live with, the key symbol the pre match song, is God Save the Queen. The most used flag symbol is that Ulster Flag with the crown on it.
The team is certainly mixed. The active support much less so.
I see no general inaccuracies with my statement.
"(Irish)Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team in the event of political unity".
Last edited by dahamsta; 04/06/2008 at 1:41 PM.
For a country of only 1.5 million I think its a huge achievement that we've managed to qualify for even one WC, never mind three and reaching the QF twice. Our record as the smallest ever country to qualify was only surpassed by Trinidad and Tobago last time round. In contrast the Republic only started to qualify/discover football when Big Jack began recruiting anyone who'd supped a Guinness. Indeed if I enter EG stat mode for a minute it just highlights the reliance you had on British players to gain your success.
Republic of Ireland (British born players/Total squad number)
1988- 13/20
1990- 16/22
1994- 15/22
2002- 11/23
Northern Ireland
1958- 0/17
1982- 2/22 (Jimmy Nicholl being Canadian born)
1986- 2/22
On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.
On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.
My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method, is love. I love you Sheriff Truman.
Republic of Ireland (British born players/Total squad number)
1988- 13/20
1990- 16/22
1994- 15/22
2002- 11/23
Northern Ireland
1958- 0/17
1982- 2/22 (Jimmy Nicholl being Canadian born)
1986- 2/22
On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.
lets go back to the nearest one 2002. Name the brit 11 born?
Last edited by kingdomkerry; 11/04/2008 at 11:32 PM.
We never finished below second in a world cup finals group. C'mon EG stop being a WUM and credit where it's due.My mistake - in quickly scanning the record, I didn't notice that you had qualified for the last 16. I think I overlooked it due to your having finished 3rd in your qualifying Group.
Talking of which, NI have won one of their Groups (1982), something which ROI cannot claim. And we've still won more matches in WC Finals...
Also I'd say we have a far better chance of qualification for the next WC than you. Most bookies I'd imagine and impartial observers would agree.
Keep clinging on to that quarter final in 1958 man when about ten teams in the world took the wc and international football as a whole seriously. It's in no way comparable to even a second round appearance in a modern world cup.
You only reached the QF once btw. More manipulated facts from our friends up north.
Last edited by dahamsta; 04/06/2008 at 10:03 AM.
'Just because you're born in a stable doesn't mean you're a horse.'
- Duke of Wellington (born in Co. Meath, Ireland)
....
Must be killing you guys when such Norn Iron heroes speak out and say that they would actually have preferred to be playing for a United Ireland team. *sigh*On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.
In contrast the Republic only started to qualify/discover football when Big Jack began recruiting anyone who'd supped a Guinness. Indeed if I enter EG stat mode for a minute it just highlights the reliance you had on British players to gain your success.
On every level NI achievements in the WC dwarf that of its bigger neighbour.
Not only is that daft it is actually pretty offensive but par for course these days it seems. Sadly.
You've qualified for one of the last seven international tournaments.
Says the man who said goodbye to the thread a few pages back...
Aye, but feel the quality
Republic of Ireland squad - 2002 FIFA World Cup 1 Given • 2 Finnan • 3 Harte • 4 Cunningham • 5 Staunton • 6 Roy Keane • 7 McAteer • 8 Holland • 9 Duff • 10 Robbie Keane • 11 Kilbane • 12 Kinsella • 13 Connolly • 14 Breen • 15 Dunne • 16 Kiely • 17 Quinn • 18 G. Kelly • 19 Morrison • 20 O'Brien • 21 Reid • 22 Carsley • 23 A. Kelly • Coach: McCarthy
I stand to be corrected, but didn't Messrs 2, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 all grow up and play all their schoolboy football in England?
It's mildly irritating, but as Ealing said above, they aren't representative of the support.
Interesting but not conclusive. Unless all those identifying as British are simultaneously excluding Irishness/ Northern Irishness/ Ulsterness- I don't think you can conclude that unionists don't feel Irish.
Last edited by Gather round; 12/04/2008 at 11:49 AM.
We finished 2nd in all our WC finals groups. We finished ahead of Holand on the drawing of lots in 1990. In 1994 we finished behind Mexico on goals scored but ahead of Italy on direct match result.My mistake - in quickly scanning the record, I didn't notice that you had qualified for the last 16. I think I overlooked it due to your having finished 3rd in your qualifying Group.
Talking of which, NI have won one of their Groups (1982), something which ROI cannot claim. And we've still won more matches in WC Finals...
Our record in WC final tournamnets is
P 13 W 2 D 8 L 3
Northern Ireland's record is
P 13 W 3 D 5 L 5
I'm sure we'd win on goal difference anyway as I recall you shipping 4 goals a few times and our heaviest defeat was 2-0.
I'm quite happy to accept that NI's record is fantastic for such a small country. I happen to believe ours is pretty good too.
We were 20 minutes away from reaching the 1934 WC and missed out on 38 by the odd goal in 11. We finished runners up in our qualifying group in 1950 and actually got an invitation to the finals but didn't accept. We were seconds away from at least aplayoff for 1958 only to be denied by a last gasp goal. We missed on on 1966 by a playoff. We lost out on 1982 thanks to the Belgians bribing a referee (not proven yet as the guys involved were only proven to be bribing referees for Anderlect but he was a total disgrace.). We also reached the last 8 of the European championships in 1964 all BC (before Charlton).
Football was also the biggest partipant sport in the Roi in 1986 when Jack arrived.
As for our British born players well many of the fans on this forum were also born there. We've had huge emigration and the likes of David O'Leary and Paul McGrath greww up in Dublin despite being born in England. Gary Breen grew up in a very Irish family and wore an Irish shirt to school on June 13th 1988. Kevin Kilbane also and is a talented Irish dancer I believe. True we have had the likes of Jason McAteer and Tony Cascarino who were legal under the rules but whose connections to this island are weak but stronger than a Trevor Wood or Maik Taylor.
Last edited by dahamsta; 04/06/2008 at 10:04 AM.
We've also qualified for the European Championships, has NI done that?
Our underage record is excellent as well if you ask me. Has NI ever won a European Championship at underage level? We've done it twice.
Anyways I think both sides have achieved a lot in international football so why don't we just leave it at that as it's clear we've achieved a lot more.
Steve Finnan was born in Limerick but moved to the UK at a very young age. But yes all of those players grew up in the UK.
Last edited by ifk101; 12/04/2008 at 8:36 AM.
Most of the entire quote you attributed to me is not something I wrote or the part of a survey I even referred to.
There are plenty of surveys down through the years all layed out in the NI Life and Times survey (and following professional standards of survey criteria).
They are not absolute proof but dandering down the different questions would make you wonder.
And how proud are you of being Irish, or do you not see yourself as Irish at all?
55% Protestants - not Irish at all
13% not proud or not very proud
The National identity answers are interesting and cross them over with the 2nd choice and 3rd choice descriptions.
Feeling Irish, Irish identity or even 'Irish pride' is well down the list and those surveys 'appear' to support why Unionists would want to have their separate team even in the event of political unity with the rest of the Island.
I will acknowledge you made big strides post Jack Charlton in only having half your squad born in the UK for 2002 WC.Certainly compared to the heady days of Italia 90 when 9 of the players who played against England were from the UK.
Not at all. They're entitled to their opinion no matter how pointless it is. O'Neill and Jennings will always remain OWC legends in my mind.
Would you have qualified for 88,90,94 if Big Jack hadnt started using the granny rule?
No but as mentioning near misses is in vogue we would have qualified for Euro 84 if todays head to head format was used as we beat the Germans home and away finishing level on points. Although beating those perennial pain in the arses Albania away from home would have helped (a similar fate in our last game which stopped us qualify for WC66).
Big strides in your mindI will acknowledge you made big strides post Jack Charlton in only having half your squad born in the UK for 2002 WC.- you really are unable to get it the 'born' in a stable etc. etc. bit are you. Tell me this, do you know anyone who is a NI supporter with kids who is living in England. Would he be encouraging their kid to support England? Who do you think he would want his kid to play for if he had a kid that was any good?
So why are you on here banging on this thread about how much better Norn Iron did at WCs than us, when it would seem that two of Norn Iron's 'heroes' would have preferred to have being playing with the next door neighbours! btw, nice of you to confirm that they are entitled to their opinion - as if we needed to know that!Not at all. They're entitled to their opinion no matter how pointless it is. O'Neill and Jennings will always remain OWC legends in my mind.
You seem to have a problem with the granny rule which I'm having a problem figuring out why?Would you have qualified for 88,90,94 if Big Jack hadnt started using the granny rule?
Is it because YOU decided they are English so should declare for England?
All rubbish - nearly was never there.No but as mentioning near misses is in vogue we would have qualified for Euro 84 if todays head to head format was used as we beat the Germans home and away finishing level on points. Although beating those perennial pain in the arses Albania away from home would have helped (a similar fate in our last game which stopped us qualify for WC66).
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