O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[ifk101]

Well yes, with the redevelopment of Landsdowne Road, I guess the question is kinda irrelevant, but I don't get the impression that NI fans' reluctance to play in Dublin is less to do with facilities and more to do with the idea of playing in the Republic.

I think that's understandable though. I'd imagine the vast majority of people wouldn't have a problem with NI playing in Dublin but we know there would be a significant number of local idiots intent on causing trouble. Anyways there isn't a suitable venue for them so it doesn't really matter.

[Razors left peg]

Why exactly would we want them to play their games down here, since they use God save the queen as their anthem I’m sure they would be much happier to play in England

Possibly some RoI fans would be upset and try to stir exaggerated outrage. But there wasn’t that much of a fuss when England played the first rugby international in Croke. And opposition to your home game at Fulham seems muted too.

I wasnt saying that it would cause outrage amongst Irish fans(although there prob would be a few), I was just making the point that Northern Ireland fans feel more British than Irish so would probably be happier to play in England rather than Dublin

[jmurphyc]

And opposition to your home game at Fulham seems muted too.

As far as I'm aware, it's not a "home" game. We played in England in 2004 in the Valley for the Unity Cup and that was not a home game either. Plenty of countries play in neutral venues in London and seeing as Croke Park is expensive to rent and it's not a particularly glamourous fixture it's a bit understandable. I would have preferred the game to be in Dublin but I don't know the reasons behind it.

[geysir]

Let's do this gently, shall we? We are Irish, just like our families going back generations. Just as Irish as you. You really must make an effort to grasp that there are hundreds of thousands of Irish Ulster unionists, NI fans etc.

That's interesting,
the more I think about it the more I see the good sense in having just one team in Ireland.
However much you and others would want an inclusive support for a NI team competing in green with that very nice badge, it is in reality an Irish Unionist team with participation of some nationalist players. In all honesty, I do not see that that is going to change. Even in the debate about a new stadium, I get some messages that the present support are happy enough with a tight 20,000 capacity.
There is a deep shared identity with Ireland going back generations. The Northern Ireland players that have come out for an All Ireland team are looking at the practical football sense of it and they see their Irish identity as being strong enough to do it.
It's a nonsense statement to say unite with France or whoever but not NI.
That is the type of an entirely dismissive statement demeaning the sense of shared Irish nationality amongst nationalists in the North that will never see them support an OWC team.

[Billsthoughts]

That's interesting,
the more I think about it the more I see the good sense in having just one team in Ireland.

Or should that be the more you try and engineer an argument…..

it is in reality an Irish Unionist team with participation of some nationalist players.

Wouldn’t that make it a team of both unionist and nationalist players then?

In all honesty, I do not see that that is going to change. Even in the debate about a new stadium, I get some messages that the present support are happy enough with a tight 20,000 capacity.

Probably not far off what our core support would be if we werent doing well. (See attendance for Ireland v Brazil in 87)

That is the type of an entirely dismissive statement demeaning the sense of shared Irish nationality amongst nationalists in the North that will never see them support an OWC team.

Wouldn’t the converse be true for Unionists in the event of an All Ireland team? Or do they not count in your little world view?

[Gather round]

As far as I'm aware, it's not a "home" game. We played in England in 2004 in the Valley for the Unity Cup and that was not a home game either

Indeed, the 2004 games were an invitation tournament n a neutral country. I went to both your games in a two-thirds empty stadium.But this is clearly different- you have deliberately hired a stadium in England rather than use one in Dublin or Cork.

Plenty of countries play in neutral venues in London and seeing as Croke Park is expensive to rent and it's not a particularly glamourous fixture it's a bit understandable. I would have preferred the game to be in Dublin but I don't know the reasons behind it

Given the low crowds in London in 2004- why would this game be that different- and thus the likelihood of a financial loss, this looks odd even before you consider fans' opposition to playing such games at a 'neutral' venue. Like 1FK and others on the Colombia game thread, I don't see that admin difficulties with block booking, or Colombia's unwillingness to fly from Madrid to Dublin rather than London, as compelling reasons not to use the RDS or Turner's Cross.

the more I think about it the more I see the good sense in having just one team in Ireland

I don't see any sense in it. NI supporters are completely opposed to it, ergo it won't happen.

However much you and others would want an inclusive support for a NI team

There is already- has always been- some 'inclusive' support for NI, ie nationalist fans who back us along with, or in a few cases instead of, your team. Many RoI fans backed us in the 1982 and 1986 World Cups. We have had some success in making NI games and football generally more welcome to everybody, though I'm not complacent about this.

it is in reality an Irish Unionist team with participation of some nationalist players

Aye, I accept this. In the broad sense, Ireland is divided between two countries. One's unionist and has a separate football team. Theoretically, I suppose, we could reach a situation where our team is made up entirely of unionist players. It wouldn't be the end of the World.

Even in the debate about a new stadium, I get some messages that the present support are happy enough with a tight 20,000 capacity

My reading is that almost all the present support would be happy with a 20,000- 25,000 capacity. Any larger would be difficult to fill and a waste of money.

The Northern Ireland players that have come out for an All Ireland team are looking at the practical football sense of it

What practical football sense? NI is a very small footballing country extremely unlikely to give RoI, or anyone, the marginal advantage to win the World Cup. West Germany took over the East (with a population ten times NI's), and haven't improved significantly since.The idea's daft and dishonest both.

and they see their Irish identity as being strong enough to do it

Good for them. I'm quite comfortable with my lifelong Irish identity. I have no national identity with the RoI nor Germany, having lived in both as a student. What's the problem?

It's a nonsense statement to say unite with France or whoever but not NI

There's no realistic likelihood of an all-Ireland football team, so one's no more nor less nonsensical than the other. Actually the others I mentioned were England (your imminent home fixture as above), Scotland (best player) or Italy (team manager)

That is the type of an entirely dismissive statement demeaning the sense of shared Irish nationality amongst nationalists in the North

Don't be such a crybaby. I haven't dismissed nor demeaned anyone's Irish identity.

that will never see them support an OWC team

Some of them already do, and I'm wholly relaxed about those who prefer not to.

[jmurphyc]

[B]As far as I'm aware, it's not a "home" game.
Indeed, the 2004 games were an invitation tournament n a neutral country. I went to both your games in a two-thirds empty stadium.But this is clearly different- you have deliberately hired a stadium in England rather than use one in Dublin or Cork.

Given the low crowds in London in 2004- why would this game be that different- and thus the likelihood of a financial loss, this looks odd even before you consider fans' opposition to playing such games at a 'neutral' venue. Like 1FK and others on the Colombia game thread, I don't see that admin difficulties with block booking, or Colombia's unwillingness to fly from Madrid to Dublin rather than London, as compelling reasons not to use the RDS or Turner's Cross.

If you keep referring to it as a "home" game then I can only assume you're on a wind up. From what I can recall previous posters saying/heard in the media Trapattoni requested a game away/in a neutral venue. It makes sense to me as it's a lot easier to play around with a team in a meaningless friendly away from home than it is in Croke Park with anywhere from 50-75,000 people watching. He can mess around with the team whilst being under a lot less scrutiny should we play poorly.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Probably not far off what our core support would be if we werent doing well. (See attendance for Ireland v Brazil in 87)

Hardly relevant today Bill, we've not exactly set the world alight recently (1 qualification since 1994) yet still pulled well over 40,000 for a friendly against China (amongst others) in recent years.....

[ifk101]

If you keep referring to it as a "home" game then I can only assume you're on a wind up. From what I can recall previous posters saying/heard in the media Trapattoni requested a game away/in a neutral venue. It makes sense to me as it's a lot easier to play around with a team in a meaningless friendly away from home than it is in Croke Park with anywhere from 50-75,000 people watching. He can mess around with the team whilst being under a lot less scrutiny should we play poorly.

The FAI is organising the game so technically it is a home international. I'd also question if Trapattoni asked for an away friendly at a neutral venue - I think he just asked for another match to prepare for the qualifiers.

[Gather round]

If you keep referring to it as a "home" game then I can only assume you're on a wind up

No, I'm being serious. It's obviously not an away game, it's not comparable to playing a Latino country in the USA (as both NI and RoI have done). But OK, I'll stop using the H-word.

Trapattoni requested a game away/in a neutral venue

An away fixture in the Balkans would make playing sense, but I can't see any justification for a neutral ground so close to home. Even if GT specifically asked for it. Is there a source for this?

It makes sense to me as it's a lot easier to play around with a team in a meaningless friendly away from home...he can mess around with the team whilst being under a lot less scrutiny should we play poorly

This seems a bit convoluted. If he doesn't want media attention, why not have a closed session at Morton stadium or wherever? Both Worthington and Mark Hughes have favoured this in the past.

than it is in Croke Park with anywhere from 50-75,000 people watching

There wouldn't be anywhere near 50,000 there- but in any case I suggested other venues. I haven't see any compelling reasons why you couldn't play at RDS or TC.

[Billsthoughts]

Hardly relevant today Bill, we've not exactly set the world alight recently (1 qualification since 1994) yet still pulled well over 40,000 for a friendly against China (amongst others) in recent years.....

Witness cyprus game were 30 odd thousand actually bought tickets and didnt turn up for it? I would say the amount of people that would follow the team regardless of how well they are doing is around the 20- 30 thousand mark.

[jmurphyc]

This seems a bit convoluted. If he doesn't want media attention, why not have a closed session at Morton stadium or wherever? Both Worthington and Mark Hughes have favoured this in the past.

than it is in Croke Park with anywhere from 50-75,000 people watching

There wouldn't be anywhere near 50,000 there- but in any case I suggested other venues. I haven't see any compelling reasons why you couldn't play at RDS or TC.

The attendances so far at Croke Park suggest that there would be at least 50,000 at the game. If we were to play at the RDS or an LOI ground the demand for tickets would be far too high.

I understand what you're saying about my assertion that Trap maybe did it to avoid unnecessary media attention, but as far as I can recall I heard that he wanted an away friendly or a friendly in a neutral venue. As for the reasons why he may have wanted this, I have no real idea why and am just trying to second guess his actions.

The FAI is organising the game so technically it is a home international. I'd also question if Trapattoni asked for an away friendly at a neutral venue - I think he just asked for another match to prepare for the qualifiers.

I don't know whether the FAI organised it, but if so why are tickets not on sale via the FAI instead of having to purchase them on the Fulham website?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Witness cyprus game were 30 odd thousand actually bought tickets and didnt turn up for it? I would say the amount of people that would follow the team regardless of how well they are doing is around the 20- 30 thousand mark.

There was still well over 50,000 at the Cyprus game following an utter debacle of a campaign, there's still enough interest to sustain crowds like that. I was at that Brazil game in 1987 and was able to stroll up to a turnstile 10 minutes before kick off. For a game against Brazil!! Those days are long gone and won't be back imo. The block booking system in part has seen to that.

[b]

than it is in Croke Park with anywhere from 50-75,000 people watching

There wouldn't be anywhere near 50,000 there- but in any case I suggested other venues. I haven't see any compelling reasons why you couldn't play at RDS or TC.

Yes there would. See how many are at the Serbia game in May. Is Columbia any less attractive? The fact is that we regulalry got sell out crowds for friendlies at Lansdowne of over 40,000. The FAI insist that you buy friendly tickets as part of your block book or lose out your allocation for competitive games. Had that friendly been on in Croker and sold as part of a package with the Serbia and Brazil game for example there's easilly have been close to 50,000 there.

[geysir]

Gather Round, please use the quote option when replying.
We are each, in our own way, unique

Aye, I accept this. In the broad sense, Ireland is divided between two countries. One's unionist and has a separate football team. Theoretically, I suppose, we could reach a situation where our team is made up entirely of unionist players. It wouldn't be the end of the World.

It would just be reflecting the reality.

What practical football sense? NI is a very small footballing country extremely unlikely to give RoI, or anyone, the marginal advantage to win the World Cup. West Germany took over the East (with a population ten times NI's), and haven't improved significantly since.The idea's daft and dishonest both.

I think you are missing Jenning's point.
What would be daft in your analogy is if Germany did not pick their best 11.
After that then you could look at the demographics of the best 11.
Then you could examine the team and wonder just how less they would be as a team without their Eastern born players.
In both our cases, NI and the ROI, the chronic problem is depth of squad.
West Germany had a healthy league and already a strong squad.
Jennings and Giles in their time knew what kind of team could have been got together. Same for George Best.

Good for them. I'm quite comfortable with my lifelong Irish identity. I have no national identity with the RoI nor Germany, having lived in both as a student. What's the problem?

We are talking about it, not brushing it under the old carpet.

The question the NI fans are not asking is the one not asked of Martin O'Neill. Would you Martin have willingly given up the WC Spain experience to a better player from the Republic?

[RogerMilla]

we already have a united ireland team , anyone on the island who wants to play for us can. those who dont want to play for us even have their own team . perfect solution in my opinion.

[Hibernian]

I don't care whether any such new team had no NI players, half a dozen NI players or the whole lot were from NI. And when it comes to it, I don't really care about flags and anthems etc. Nor do I have anything against the ROI team or its supporters.

It's just I have no desire to see the team I first went to watch 38 years ago disappear, to be replaced by a United Ireland team, a United Kingdom team, or any other "United" team, for that matter.

NI are my team, I've supported them through thick and thin and I just want to go on doing so. Why can't other people, who fervently follow their own team, not understand this?

P.S. If absolutely forced, the only possibility I might countenance would be to merge with Brazil or, at a pinch, Sweden (the latter more for their female fans than their players! )

I think this is a great point there. At end of day we are seperate countries. That is just the way it is. Can't see it happening for long long time not in my time I would be surprised if otherwise

[Gather round]

The attendances so far at Croke Park suggest that there would be at least 50,000 at the game

I stand corrected, apologies. But I was assuming that Croke Park was unavailable for this game. My point was really that I haven't seen any compelling case NOT to use the smaller, but licensed and adequate stadia elsewhere in the country.

It would just be reflecting the reality

Only if all decent footballers from nationalist background in NI decide to play for RoI. There are many reasons why they might not- leaving aside party politics, I'd guess a major one is selection for NI school and youth representative teams would increase the likelihood of a professional contract in Britain.

What would be daft in your analogy is if Germany did not pick their best 11. After that then you could look at the demographics of the best 11. Then you could examine the team and wonder just how less they would be as a team without their Eastern born players

My analogy is straightforward. Merging two international football teams doesn't necessarily mean that the new team will be significantly stronger than both its predecessors. As for the demographics of the German team in the 1990s and since, it's of only academic interest really. I have drunk in the pub in Torsten Frings' home village (near Aachen)...

Jennings and Giles in their time knew what kind of team could have been got together. Same for George Best

Er...so what? Everyone at the time knew how good the players in both teams were, they saw them on MotD every week.

The question the NI fans are not asking is the one not asked of Martin O'Neill. Would you Martin have willingly given up the WC Spain experience to a better player from the Republic?

Why would we ask that? It's not hypothetical, just pointless.

We are each, in our own way, unique

We are talking about it, not brushing it under the old carpet

I'm afraid you'll have to explain these gnomic asides to me...

we already have a united ireland team , anyone on the island who wants to play for us can. those who dont want to play for us even have their own team . perfect solution in my opinion (Roger Milla)

Bien sur, mon ami.

[geysir]

Sorry Gather Round, it is very very tedious, sometimes nonsensical when you refuse to use the quote function and apply board discussion format to your replies.

[Gather round]

Geysir, happy now? For the benefit of other readers, I've edited above to quote others in italic as per convention, rather than in bold type. I just find the latter quicker and more convenient as a rule. I'd be amazed if anyone else considered this distinction (as opposed to what people actually write, which you seem less worried about) as tedious, let alone nonsensical.

[GavinZac]

Geysir, happy now? For the benefit of other readers, I've quoted others in italic as per convention, rather than in bold type. I just find the latter quicker and more convenient as a rule.

Its horrible to read through though.