O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[Not Brazil]

I'd consider a song glorifying a military battle (not that there's anything wrong with that, we've written plenty) a different facet of culture then one regarding the famine, it's a ludicrous comparison. Your implication was that it was a rebel song because of one line about rebelling against 'the famine and the crown'. Plainly it isn't.

Does a song have to be about football to be sung at a match now? Why did Liverpool fans sing non football related Beatles songs in the 60's? Why sing 'Abide with me' before the cup final? Stadia would be pretty quiet (quieter?) if the only songs allowed had something to do with football......

We sing it coz it's a good tune and has a rousing chorus that everybody knows. And it sounds great being sung by 40,000 plus.....

The are both culturally significant to many people on this island - that's it!

If you are happy with Irish cultural/historical songs to be sung at football matches, that's cool by me.

[EalingGreen]

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

Ok, let's try it this way. You decide what size our stadium should be, and we tell you where to stick it?

[Not Brazil]

Quite. But in the meantime, I'm rather more concerned about what we (NI) can do to improve our away record for the WC2010 Qualifying games ahead.

FFS EG, lay off the difficult questions, will you.

[janeymac]

Janeymac,
You seem to be determined to tell us what size our support is/should be and by extrapolation, what ideal size any new football stadium should be. As evidence, you cite inter alia the IFA CEO's lobbying for the Maze, the attendance at an Ulster rugby Final in 1999 and GAA crowds.

No harm, but you clearly don't know the first thing you're talking about here.
Under its CEO, Howard Wells, the official IFA view is one of support for the 44k Maze. However, Wells is effectively a Government employee (salary paid by DCAL), who wants a stadium on his CV, for his next job, regardless of whether it's in the best interests of the IFA. Meanwhile, other IFA figures are keeping stumm, since that organisation is potless, there is no alternative to the Maze in sight, and the Maze may be useful as a bargaining tool in our contractual dispute with Linfield over Windsor.
However, I am increasingly confident that the Maze will NOT be built, in which case we're back to square one. At which point, the overwhelming majority of NI fans feel a stadium in Belfast of around 25k capacity (with the otion to expand if demand justifies) is the ideal solution for the near/medium term. Personally, I'd like to see something bigger, but I am happy to go along with the consensus of my fellow NI fans.
Insofar as you have an interest in the matter, you might be advised to do the same.

P.S. For all that Ulster attracted 50k to Lansdowne in 1999 (including me), the simple fact is that when they recently revamped Ravenhill, they actually reduced the overall capacity to around 12,500, in order to accommodate corporate facilities (Exec.Boxes etc).
They therefore feel that this is adequate for all but two or three Heineken Cup matches per year - assuming they continue to qualify for it.
Their support for the Maze was purely because they were dependant upon a Government grant to refurbish Ravenhill, so didn't want to antagonise them and jeopardise the grant. Unofficially, the Ulster Blazers couldn't care less about the Maze. And Ulster rugby fans are actively opposed - in so far as anyone can gauge.

P.P.S. Since theirs is an entirely different "constituency" from football's, GAA crowds in Ulster are utterly irrelevant to the debate as to what size an NI football stadium should be.

First of all - its a national stadium - not just a football stadium so I think GAA & Rugby are relevant! And I'm pretty sure the IRFU would have preferred to develop Lansdowne on their own and hire it out to the FAI - but the Irish Gov. wouldn't have been so generous. Thats life! Ulster Rugby always have access to Lansdowne when they need it, so its not such a big trauma when they need a bigger ground.

Ulster Rugby would have increased their capacity if they could have - its just they don't have the space and can't get the planning permission. As for corporate facilities - they need to generate cash if they want to keep good players. As for Lansdowne Road - most fans would say its too small now - but hey, what do fans know?

Ok, let's try it this way. You decide what size our stadium should be, and we tell you where to stick it?

Getting a bit flustered now because someone asks a few questions about OWC support?

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=janeymac;920448]First of all - its a national stadium - not just a football stadium so I think GAA & Rugby are relevant! /QUOTE]

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, bit The Maze stadium project is not happening - this will be formally announced in the not too distant future.

Big clue in yesterday's news - Tony Whitehead, the most senior adviser involved in the proposed development of the Maze Stadium project has resigned his post.

Now that's soon to be out of the way, the interest of myself and majority of Northern Ireland football fans is to ensure that we get an international football stadium, fitting of our needs (Couldn't care less about the GAA or IRFU, although they should get their fair share of development funding), somewhere in Belfast - our capital city.

Circa 25,000 capacity will do dead on.

[janeymac]

[quote=Not Brazil;920459]

First of all - its a national stadium - not just a football stadium so I think GAA & Rugby are relevant! /QUOTE]

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment, bit The Maze stadium project is not happening - this will be formally announced in the not too distant future.

Big clue in yesterday's news - Tony Whitehead, the most senior adviser involved in the proposed development of the Maze Stadium project has resigned his post.

Now that's soon to be out of the way, the interest of myself and majority of Northern Ireland football fans is to ensure that we get an international football stadium, fitting of our needs (Couldn't care less about the GAA or IRFU, although they should get their fair share of development funding), somewhere in Belfast - our capital city.

Circa 25,000 capacity will do dead on.

TBH, I don't know whether the Maze is the right place or not (and don't care that much). But at a guess, NI Football are not going to get their own football stadium unless they come up with at least half the cost of the project. So you need a very rich sponsor!

[EalingGreen]

Getting a bit flustered now because someone asks a few questions about OWC support?

Mildly frustrated, perhaps, but flustered? Hardly.

Ask all the questions you like - that's not a problem.

Even offer an opinion, if need be - it's a free world, after all.

In fact, why not tell us what is best for us? After all, you do seem remarkably confident for someone whose knowledge of the situation on the ground is so palpably lacking. Just don't be too surprised if we begin to find it a bit tiresome, and respond with somewhat less than our usual grace and decorum.

After all, it's either that or we tell you what you must do over e.g the re-building of Lansdowne, the renting-out of Croke to "foreign" sports, the Tallaght Stadium or the "Bertiebowl", for instance.

Anyhow, you'll forgive me if I desist from doing so for the moment; you see, I'm off to a Middle-Eastern Political Website, to tell the Jews and Arabs where they're going wrong. I trust I'll receive a warm welcome...

[Not Brazil]

TBH, I don't know whether the Maze is the right place or not (and don't care that much). But at a guess, NI Football are not going to get their own football stadium unless they come up with at least half the cost of the project. So you need a very rich sponsor!

Time will tell, I guess.

[janeymac]

Mildly frustrated, perhaps, but flustered? Hardly.

-----

Anyhow, you'll forgive me if I desist from doing so for the moment; you see, I'm off to a Middle-Eastern Political Website, to tell the Jews and Arabs where they're going wrong. I trust I'll receive a warm welcome...

Just a thought ... this website is football.ie ... I'm not off visiting OWC giving an opinion.

[EalingGreen]

Ulster Rugby would have increased their capacity if they could have - its just they don't have the space and can't get the planning permission. As for corporate facilities - they need to generate cash if they want to keep good players.

UR had a choice. They could increase revenue by increasing the total numbers of spectators they could accommodate, or they could do so by increasing their corporate facilities, but only by reducing the total number of spectators.

They chose the latter. What do you think that tells us about their confidence in their ability to attract larger crowds than at present (currently not much more than 10k average)?

Just a thought ... this website is football.ie ... I'm not off visiting OWC giving an opinion.

This thread is discussing something which directly affects the future of the NI football team. As an NI fan, I am offering my opinion on that, as I'm perfectly entitled to do.

I am not, however, offering my opinion on how the FAI should organise its affairs, never mind telling them how they must do so, as you, an ROI fan, are doing over our affairs.

I wouldn't be so presumptious.

[janeymac]

UR had a choice. They could increase the total numbers of spectators they could accommodate, or they could increase their corporate facilities, but only by reducing the total number of spectators.

They chose the latter. What do you think that tells us about their confidence in their ability to attract larger crowds than at present (currently not much more than 10k average)?

I actually think that 10,000 on a regular basis is quite good for rugby. Its far better than any League of Ireland game on a Friday night! UR really need to bring in some cash and corporate sponsorship is the easiest way to do it. Its tough - UR are trying to compete with the likes of Toulouse who have an annual budget of over €20m (like all Irish provinces).

[Drumcondra 69er]

I don't know of one NI fan who gives a stuff about TFOA being sung at ROI games - even with an "Up the RA" add on. It's nothing whatever to do with us or our support.
As for The Sash, if a few NI fans got p issed in a pub in Cardiff and started singing it, that is regrettable, but still hardly relevant to the debate, since it hasn't (to my knowledge) been sung at an NI games for many years.
And as for making some sort of comparison between the two songs, in order to prove some sort of point, that is utterly silly, and no addition whatever to this thread.
If you've got issues over this sort of thing, why don't you take them to a more appropriate forum, such as Slugger O'Toole. Or your nearest Primary School playground...

First off I didn't bring TFOA into this discussion, I merely corrected Not Brazil's inference that it was a rebel song.

Secondly, I didn't make any comparison between the two songs, that was Not Brazil again. I agree it is utterly silly to make a comparison which was my point. Obviously you've not read the thread and instead resorted to a knee jerk response.

Finally, I've no issues over 'this sort of thing' and wonder if, when you've copped yourself on a bit, you'll realise how childish your final jibe makes you look....

[kingdomkerry]

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished. Have they finished upgrading the road from Belfast to Larne recently? When they have you can thank us

Well I'm quoting from the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen (who will be Taoiseach) next month. Minister of Finance = Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ireland is a Soverign State and would need a specific Dept. & Minister to look after its accounts. We also have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, Min. for Tourism (in fact we have loads of Ministers) - but the boss is the Taoiseach.

Please look at this link. Notice it says Department of Finance - An Roinn Airgeadais (hint that it is Irish perhaps!).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601



I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?



Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!



Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

As well as building your roads, today we gace ye 5,000 of our highly paid jobs in the financial services sector. We are always so 'nice' to everyone up north so its about time a certain community up there was nice back.

Give it a go and we might even build ye a staduium

[EalingGreen]

Finally, I've no issues over 'this sort of thing' and wonder if, when you've copped yourself on a bit, you'll realise how childish your final jibe makes you look....

No "issues"? Virtually all your recent posts on this thread - #415, #412, #371, #231, #225, #220 - have been about purely political matters, often from past centuries, sometimes even outwith Ireland.

None has had any relevance whatever to NI or ROI football, much less the prospects or otherwise, for a "united" Ireland team.

But if it pleases you, I'll withdraw my "playground" jibe and apologise.

[Drumcondra 69er]

No "issues"? Virtually all your recent posts on this thread - #415, #412, #371, #231, #225, #220 - have been about purely political matters, often from past centuries, sometimes even outwith Ireland.

None has had any relevance whatever to NI or ROI football, much less the prospects or otherwise, for a "united" Ireland team.

But if it pleases you, I'll withdraw my "playground" jibe and apologise.

Neither pleases nor displeases me, just wanted to point out how childish it made you look. But for the sake of peace and quiet I'll accept your apology. And why would having an opinion on certain political matters automatically mean I have any 'issues'. All of my posts have been responses and indeed I jokingly pointed out that the nature of the debate would have been better suited to politics.ie and shortly after gave up with the thread. But it's been kept going so I dipped back in today although it's mainly been about music rather then politics, you're making the mistake of considering TFOA a political song again....

[Not Brazil]

First off I didn't bring TFOA into this discussion, I merely corrected Not Brazil's inference that it was a rebel song.

Secondly, I didn't make any comparison between the two songs, that was Not Brazil again. I agree it is utterly silly to make a comparison which was my point. Obviously you've not read the thread and instead resorted to a knee jerk response.

Hang on a wee minute.

I didn't raise the issue of Irish historical/cultural songs.

One of your fellow ROI fans did, by giving out about some Northern Ireland fans singing The Sash (an Irish historical/cultural song) whilst roaming the streets of Cardiff.

On the issue of The Fields Of Athenry, I have stated it to be an Irish historical/cultural song - it includes words of rebellion (against the famine and the Crown), but I whollly accept that it is not a "rebel song" in the more commonly thought of context.

Neither song causes me any concern whatsoever, in wider context.

As well as building your roads, today we gace ye 5,000 of our highly paid jobs in the financial services sector. We are always so 'nice' to everyone up north so its about time a certain community up there was nice back.

Give it a go and we might even build ye a staduium

Bertie and Biffo certainly do seem to be about genuinely uniting people.

Why, I even think that Bertie is indulging The Good Doctor in another, all expenses paid, jolly to The Boyne very soon.

PS. I hope Bertie doesn't remind the Good Doctor that King Billy was a poof - all hell will break loose then

[geysir]

Imagine Northern Ireland fans wanting to engage in a discussion about a proposed demise of their team.
Amazing.

Imagine the discussion was initiated by your own football legends.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Hang on a wee minute.

I didn't raise the issue of Irish historical/cultural songs.

One of your fellow ROI fans did, by giving out about some Northern Ireland fans singing The Sash (an Irish historical/cultural song) whilst roaming the streets of Cardiff.

On the issue of The Fields Of Athenry, I have stated it to be an Irish historical/cultural song - it includes words of rebellion (against the famine and the Crown), but I whollly accept that it is not a "rebel song" in the more commonly thought of context.

Neither song causes me any concern whatsoever, in wider context.

That's fair enough mate, wasn't saying you did (think you brought TFOA into it which is what I said), no beef at this end. <no thumbs up smiley either unfortunately!>

[Gather round]

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished

It isn't giving the amount you claimed, or anything like it, and you can't offer any evidence that it is, despite repeated prompting.

Well I'm quoting from the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen (who will be Taoiseach) next month. Minister of Finance = Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ireland is a Soverign State and would need a specific Dept. & Minister to look after its accounts. We also have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, Min. for Tourism (in fact we have loads of Ministers) - but the boss is the Taoiseach. Please look at this link. Notice it says Department of Finance - An Roinn Airgeadais (hint that it is Irish perhaps!) http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4601

Thanks for the Irish language/ history/ structure of the Oireachteas lesson.But it isn't giving the amount you claimed, or anything like it, and you can't offer any evidence that it is, despite repeated prompting.

I wonder when the GAA decided to redevelop Croke Park back in the early '90s (when we didn't have a seat in our pants as they say) were there fans out there telling them they had lost the plot, it was far too ambitious and they would never fill it or pay for it?

You tell me. How is this relevant? We think we need a stadium for about 25,000, and we're confident we'll get it, despite Howard Wells' politicking and your helpful lobbying for the Maze. GAA gets impressive support? Great, good for you.

Or simply, the don't think Belfast is the centre of the NI universe and if the stadium is to be successful, it has to be in a neutral place (hard to find in Belfast I think). After all, its a NATIONAL stadium not just a football stadium!

Belfast is where the huge majority of the fans want trhe stadium to be (this includes fans who live west of the Bann, btw). I'll recap why: there are no plans to make the Maze site more accessible with a railway or road spur (so almost everyone will have to drive in and out on one-lane farm roads). Similarly, there are no plans to provide any bars, restaurants or facilities comparable to those in the city centre. Such facilities wouldn't be commercially viable- not enough events at the stadium, no passing traffic.

It isn't 'neutral', it's empty, thus the problems above. Given that Lisburn and the Lagan Valley is a strongly unionist area- nationalist parties got about 14% in recent elections- it isn't neutral at all. The workforce in the notional stadium would be predominantly unionist, ditto the neighbours.

NI as a whole remains polarised, so you could argue that nowhere is neutral. But NI fans are in favour in principle of at least two sites in the city centre (Ormeau Park and Maysfield) which are close to and reached from strongly nationalist areas.

We know it's a national stadium (that's planned). What's your point? if the three sports can agree, maybe they'll share it If not, each can make its arrangments. Any of which will cost less than the Maze plan.

Sorry, I should have said 25,000 instead of 20,000! You know it will help if you admit to why you wouldn't be able to get a better attendance at an international football game in Belfast - a city with a population of around 1m. Its not as if you are competing with Man Utd or Arsenal for support, is it?

Like I said, why don't you read what others say instead of throwing around irrelevance and random exclamation marks? I've told you repeatedly why I think 25,000 is a sensible capacity; that with such a capacity, there'll be occasional games with a much higher demand for tickets; that such a capacity and likely crowds compare favourably with many other European countries, if not with the entirely different sport of GAA.

[geysir]

If you look at the link I put up (and again) you will see that the Republic is giving money to NI - you won't get it until the work is finished. Have they finished upgrading the road from Belfast to Larne recently? When they have you can thank us

£400m is a tidy sum indeed.
I think a few simple signs along the road would do just fine, 'Built with the generous assistance from the people of the Republic of Ireland' along with a nice shamrock graphic.
Haven't we acknowledged the financing of our roads by the EEC with a few signs expressing gratitude?