O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[jmurphyc]

But why orange?

I don't care what colours you have in your flag, and I don't care if I'm not represented in it.

I'm curious as to why the colour orange - youngirish seems to think that orange is more to do with Dutch, Germans and Danish people, than anything to do with people born and bred on this island.

I'm not youngirish so what he thinks has nothing to do with what I think. However, he did explain what the flag means so if our flag is supposed to be about finding peace between the two communities how would you have designed it? It seems like the best way to represent the Protestant community. As I said, orange probably wasn't used to make a generalisation but it just seems like the simplest and most effective colour (or symbol) in order to proclaim what the message of our flag is. Can you suggest something better?

[co. down green]

November 1993. Nearly 15 years ago. Assuming this was your last visit for an NI international, I hardly think that qualifies you to pontificate on the current situation as regards fan behaviour.

No pontificating, I simply responded (post 242) to your post saying that I watched the North v Georgia game on television and didn't realise that thousands of fans still shouted the loyalist ' no surrender' ( in a pavlovian & knee-jerk reaction way, according to you ) during the playing of the british anthem.

But perhaps I was wrong and it was a conspiracy by the BBC sound department, who prior to the game, identified said ‘sectarian chanters’ and positioned their pitch side microphones in their direction to make it sound like the chanting was coming form all round the ground.


Glad to have put you right on the numbers of foreign born players who represented the North.

[Not Brazil]

Can you suggest something better?

Like I said, it's up to you - it's not really any of my business. Just curious.

[youngirish]

Evidently not that well up on your history youngirish.

Why orange to represent "the Protestant" community?

Are you suggesting that the Irish Republic needs a new flag?

I have "admitted" long ago that I am Irish - I am also, proudly and unapologetically, a British Citizen.

I don't mean that to antagonise you, or to cause division.

That's what I am, and that's the way it is.

Once more people begin to respect that the terms Irish and British are not mutually exclusive, and that people like me are not just pretending what we are, then we might have less division.

Nope I'm well up on history. I don't honestly understand the majority of your post. Why would the ROI need a new flag? All I'm saying (correctly I may add) is that the song The Sash is in no way representative of any symbolism on our flag so why you alluded to the tricolour earlier when discussing the aforementioned song was inaccurate in the extreme.

By you assuming that my previous statement as Irish people we should all just get along was meant in some way meant to be a threat to your Britishness and that you being British and Irish would offend my sensibilites shows that the problem is with your paranoia and insecurities and not with me. I never stated anything of the sort I simply meant that if you feel Irish why do you have to use your Britishness as some sort of barrier to separate you from all the other Irish people on this island?

I am a Dubliner and a Irish person. I don't want a separate international team in Dublin that distinguishes me from all the other Irish people on the island. I probably should, however, take a leaf out of the NI unionists book as Dublin being the Pale was the heartland of the British colonsiation in Ireland for 700 years (that's about 300 more than Ulster in fact) and strive to get Dublin seceeded from the Irish Republic and rejoined with my ancestors across the Irish sea. Think for a second about how silly this sounds.

I wouldn't have any problem with anyone considering themselves Irish and British. Neither is mutually exclusive. However I have a problem with one side of the identity being used as a barrier to separate you from those who associate with the other side.

[Not Brazil]

But perhaps I was wrong and it was a conspiracy by the BBC sound department, who prior to the game, identified said ‘sectarian chanters’ and positioned their pitch side microphones in their direction to make it sound like the chanting was coming form all round the ground.

And thousands more Northern Ireland fans dislike our National Anthem being disrespected with such "add ons", and wish it would stop.

Not sure what's "sectarian" about it tho.

[jmurphyc]

This non-Orangeman, non-Protestant Irishman couldn't care less what flag you choose for your country, or why. Even more to the point, this Irish football fan cannot see the slightest relevance of it in the debate over the future of NI retaining its own separate, independent international football team.

This ceased to be a debate about the rights and wrongs of an AI team a long time ago (as they always do). I was simply trying to answer a question that was asked. Anyway, IMO the message in our flag has more to do with whether there will be an AI team than a lot of the nonsense that is currently being posted.

[youngirish]

As for the break up of e.g. the USSR or Yugoslavia, surely those people who advocate a "united" Ireland team on the basis that it would be stronger than either NI or ROI must recognise that the old combined teams must also have been stronger than their splintered successors?
And surely the quality of more recent tournaments has been diluted by the inclusion e.g. in 2002 of the likes of Saudi Arabia - Played 3, Lost 3, Goals For 0, Goals Against 12?
As for your assertion over the quality of players in 1958, you really are exposing your ignorance for all to see. Or don't you rate the likes of Fontaine, Kopa, Happel, Charlton, Finney, Haynes, Yashin, Charles, Seeler, Walter, Rahn, Gren, Hamrun, Masopust, Mackay, Hidegkuti and Sandor? Or Blanchflower, Gregg and McIlroy? Or even this lot of "journeymen"?
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive...eam=43924.html
Recognise any of those names?

If you can't comprehend the basic mathematical principle of one good team taking one qualification space out of those available makes it easier to qualify compared to 5 or 6 good teams fighting it out for that same number of spaces then you really are a lost cause. Are you seriously that stupid or just trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the less gifted on here? I personally believe there's a little from column A and a little from column B going on in your head.

And to state that the quality of football in 1958 was the same as that in the modern game (my original argument stated otherwise) is an ignorance that defies belief.

[Gather round]

I have a problem with one side of the identity being used as a barrier to separate you from those who associate with the other side

We are a different nationality to you, ergo we feel separate to you. You might as well get used to it. Yes, it's a barrier- like any of the other borders between the hundreds of different countries Worldwide. As I said, YOU are using it as a barrier just as much as anyone on the other side.

[Not Brazil]

Nope I'm well up on history. I don't honestly understand the majority of your post. Why would the ROI need a new flag? All I'm saying (correctly I may add) is that the song The Sash is in no way representative of any symbolism on our flag so why you alluded to the tricolour earlier when discussing the aforementioned song was inaccurate in the extreme.

I wouldn't have any problem with anyone considering themselves Irish and British. Neither is mutually exclusive. However I have a problem with one side of the identity being used as a barrier to separate you from those who associate with the other side.

I'm not suggesting that the Irish Republic needs a new flag.

If the orange in the flag of the Irish Republic is not representative of those in the community to whom The Sash is an important part of their heritage, what is it representative of?

Regarding your second point above, are you suggesting that the British Citizens of Ireland should simply forsake their British birthright and identity, because you want us all to be the same?

How about those who do not identify as British in any way (a wholly valid and respected position on my part) finding a way to accept and respect that many people born and bred on this island are different to them in how they identify?

[youngirish]

If the orange in the flag of the Irish Republic is not representative of those in the community to whom The Sash is an important part of their heritage, what is it representative of?

Regarding your second point above, are you suggesting that the British Citizens of Ireland should simply forsake their British birthright and identity, because you want us all to be the same?

How about those who do not identify as British in any way (a wholly valid and respected position on my part) finding a way to accept and respect that many people born and bred on this island are different to them in how they identify?

Not Brazil stop being so unreasonable. Are you assuming that it's correct behaviour and a critical part of the Protesant identity on this island to sing songs about battles over three centuries old that represented one of the most violent and divisive episodes between the two creeds in the history of this island? If so you are being a bit unreasonable on the whole issue.

Nope I'm simply stating that you can still feel British but be happy to be part of a unified Ireland with the rest of us Irish if as you state you also feel Irish. It all depends on how Irish you feel compared to being British. It's that simple imo.

Just to confirm my stance on the whole issue I couldn't personally give a sh*te whether Ireland is united or not. I'm not particularly for or against it particularly with a large majority of the population up north still favouring union within the UK. I'm just trying to point out some of the ridiculous attitudes that still prevail on this island of ours such as singing 300 year old songs about battles where the Catholics got a hammering is an important part of our heritage. The world would be even more messed up if everyone around Europe thought the same.

[Not Brazil]

Anyway, IMO the message in our flag has more to do with whether there will be an AI team than a lot of the nonsense that is currently being posted.

Well, based on what you've told us about your flag, can I tell you that I care not one iota for the small differences in theological interpretation between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion that may exist on this island.

Religion has nothing to do with my identity.

Regarding an AI football team, no thanks.

No thanks either to an all UK team.

My allegiance is to representative sides fielded by the (128 year old) Irish Football Association - no help required, thanks.

[Gather round]

I'm simply stating that you can still feel British but be happy to be part of a unified Ireland with the rest of us Irish if as you state you also feel Irish. It all depends on how Irish you feel compared to being British. It's that simple imo

It's even simpler than that. We feel 100% Irish and 100% British, and we don't want to be part of a unified Ireland in the way you would like. But thanks for asking.

[Not Brazil]

Not Brazil stop being so unreasonable. Are you assuming that it's correct behaviour and a critical part of the Protesant identity on this island to sing songs about battles over three centuries old that represented one of the most violent and divisive episodes between the two creeds in the history of this island? if so you are being very unreasonable imo.

Nope I'm simply stating that you can still feel British but be happy to be part of a unified Ireland with the rest of us Irish if as you state you also feel Irish. It all depends on how Irish you feel compared to being British. It's that simple.

I don't feel I am being at all unreasonable.

You have failed to answer why orange is the colour representing Protestantism on your national flag.

The events of over 300 years ago, whilst irrelevant in my life, are remembered and celebrated by many people on this island - in fact, it forms part of their heritage and culture.

Those people would not be unique in the world by remembering/celebrating their history.

I'm perfectly happy being a British Citizen, born and bred on the island of Ireland - I don't have any desire to be politically "united" with those who cannot/will not accept and respect my identity.

My "Britishness" is not something that's negotiable - it's part of my very being.

My "Irishness" is something I cherish - unfortunately, many in Northern Ireland, for reasons best known to them, reject their "Irishness".

[jmurphyc]

Well, based on what you've told us about your flag, can I tell you that I care not one iota for the small differences in theological interpretation between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion that may exist on this island.

Religion has nothing to do with my identity.

Regarding an AI football team, no thanks.

No thanks either to an all UK team.

My allegiance is to representative sides fielded by the (128 year old) Irish Football Association - no help required, thanks.

You've obviously misunderstood my post. I didn't say our flag had anything to do with religion, which I might add also has nothing to do with my identity.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I wouldn't have any problem with anyone considering themselves Irish and British. Neither is mutually exclusive. However I have a problem with one side of the identity being used as a barrier to separate you from those who associate with the other side.

Well, techinchally it is really. Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales, Ireland is a seperate island. British is generally defined as 'of or pertaining to Great Britain or its inhabitants'. Given that our friends in the north are subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Nothern Ireland calling themsleves British is a slight misnomer. I don't even think that Brirtish passports are now issued, it says 'UK of GB and NI' on the front. Pedantic I know.....

[youngirish]

It's even simpler than that. We feel 100% Irish and 100% British, and we don't want to be part of a unified Ireland in the way you would like. But thanks for asking.

So answer me this then if you do feel equally Irish to British then why are you so against a united Ireland but fully commited remaining in Britain? If you truly felt 100% Irish then surely any reasonable person wouldn't be so hostile to the idea and might even consider it.

To clarify the situation I honestly don't personally care whether NI is part of a united Ireland or not I'm just pointing out some of the ridiculous attitudes that still persist up north (often on both sides of the community). This keep on saying no Paisley attitude still persists with most people spouting it unable to comprehend what they are saying no to and why they still are saying it.

Well, techinchally it is really. Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales, Ireland is a seperate island. British is generally defined as 'of or pertaining to Great Britain or its inhabitants'. Given that our friends in the north are subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Nothern Ireland calling themsleves British is a slight misnomer. I don't even think that Brirtish passports are now issued, it says 'UK of GB and NI' on the front. Pedantic I know.....

So how can you have Irish Americans and Italian Americans etc? Surely they are just Americans then. I'd argue that NI Unionists are far more Irish than most Irish Americans even if they often choose not to see themselves in this way.

[janeymac]

Er...NI fans are arguing for a new or redeveloped stadium that holds up to twice the capacity of Windsor Park. But there's no point building a white elephant three or four times the size- it woulde be a waste of money, and experience going back decades suggests crowds likely to fill it would happen only very occasionally. Let's be realistic: countries with less than 2 million people tend not to win the World Cup...

I agree with your point about winning the world cup - but for a sport that is ment to be of the people for the people its surprising that you can't get a better attendance at international games. If two counties such as Tipp. v. Limerick (joint pop. of about 400,000) playing hurling in Limerick (the home of rugby) can get 50,000 x 3 times into a stadia for a Munster semi-finals, a football international should be able to do the same in NI!

When Ulster were top of the Celtic League, they didn't get significantly more than that- certainly not to the extent that they needed to urgently redevelop Ravenhill, or borrow Croke, Lansdowne or the Maracana. They got a big crowd for a one off cup final nine years ago. Nice, but not a sensible basis for expansion on the scale you suggest.

They could probably do much the same as Leinster capacity wise for Mangners. But for Heineken Cup (4 games a year at least and remember, the top clubs in Europe are visiting) they would need greater capacity. They probably would move to Lansdowne if they got into the knock-outs.

They have as much say as anyone. They are of course entitled to support a shared sports stadium at Long Kesh, but they can't reasonably insist on it if other sports oppose the project. Football and rugby fans have made clear their opposition to the LK site. Most comment now suggests unionist politics as a whole will withdraw support soon.

I seem to recall reading something in the last week or so where the IFA, UR and GAA all decided not to attend a meeting called by DUP politicians about the new stadia because they were fed up with delays. I got the impression that the three organisations seemed to be very united in their approach towards the DUP politicians attempts to delay the Maze project.

Why would I think that? I certainly haven't implied it, again it's completely irrelevant to anything I've said. Please stop stirring, it's childish.

Ah, suppose you are right - just I've seen a lot of similar type comments on football boards coming from NI football supporters about their fellow countryment

Economic growth in NI to end 2006 (last year of collated figures) was 5.6%- the second highest of Britain's twelve regions. Manufacturing exports increased by 10% in 2006/07. Growth of the economy in 2008 is estimated at 2.4% by Oxford Economics (the ESRI estimates the equivalent figure for the Republic at 1.8%). No-one pretends that there aren't serious problems, both local and global, but 'basket-case' is just empty cliche. (Source: http://www.detini.gov.uk/cgi-bin/downutildoc?id=2158)

The 5.6% is great, but remember you are coming from a very low base. btw, in the case of NI, 'basket case' maybe a cliche, but its entirely appropriate for NI - the highest public service employment in the world at 70% (UK average is about 40%!) In the ROI, its 30%! GDP of NI is about €20k per head - ROI is €43k per head. NI gets a subvention from Britain of somewhere between 7-10b every year. One of the reasons why we won't having a UI for a long time - the Republic just haven't got the resources to carry NI!

No you aren't. Stop lying, please. The Republic's entire budget estimate for international co-operation is only €813 million in 2008 (source http://www.budget.gov.ie/2008/downlo...dgetTables.pdf)

Calm down, and stop accusing me of lying. The €4 billion was a once-off gift from the republic as part of the St. Andrews Agreement. All this money is going into building roads, rail etc. (infrastructure). Example here - Derry City Airport - (€11m from Irish Gov. to upgrade)!

-----

26/01/2007

Minister of Foreign Affairs today announces increased Government funding for the City of Derry Airport.
Mr. Dermot Ahern, T.D., Minister for Foreign Affairs, said: "City of Derry Airport serves the entire North West region. Recognising its strategic importance, the Government has decided to increase its funding to allow the completion of development works at the Airport."
"The Government will contribute a total of €10.87 million to works at the Airport. The Government’s contribution is matched by the British Government under the co-funding arrangements agreed by the two Governments in March 2005.
"The two Governments’ partnership approach to the funding of City of Derry Airport is an example of how we can jointly deliver better quality infrastructure to our citizens, North and South."
The Minister added: "As announced earlier this week in our new National Development Plan, we propose to invest in other such strategic infrastructure projects that can be of mutual benefit. I will be discussing such proposals with the British Government and with the Northern Ireland Executive on restoration".

---------

What does this mean? I said that youth players in NI representative teams were more likely to get professional contracts than those who weren't chosen. And once chosen by NI, they're likely to stay with us. If you have any evidence against this, let's see it?

What do you mean about evidence against NI?

If a young fellow who has played underage for NI, goes to a club in England (away from NI and its political complexity) where there might be a few young ROI lads who he gets very pally with and sees nothing wrong with playing his international football with them. (The same could happen the other way as well!)

No. Again, nothing I've said implies this. I want NI schools and youth teams to pick the best players available. I think anyone playing in a youth international side (ie after leaving school) shouldn't be eligible for any other country thereafter. I don't expect more than a trickle of players away, as I said- but time will tell.

I wouldn't disagree with having to make the decision at 18. If they are old enough to vote, they are old enough to decide who they want to play football for imo. But then again, when I think of possibly young Nigerians here in Ireland who may play international underage - I would entirely understand if they eventually decided to play for Nigeria, even if they were born or brought up in Ireland. Its connecting with their heritage.

Well, like I said, anyone who argues for our team to be abolished can **** off. Couldn't give a toss if they won the European cup, scored 200 League goals, did a good job representing other players or have an eponymous airport- no-one is beyond criticism. I haven't seen any direct quotes from O'Neill and Jennings- I asked for them on page two, way above- but in principle I apply the same criticism to anyone who puts the argument.

..... Never x 4 - right!

The 20,000 NI supporters will get their way - doesn't matter about the rest of their fellow countrymen (of NI)!

[as_i_say]

Amazing how members of the occupied 6 crawl from the woodwork and back onto the ireland board when this topic raises its head. Bugger off back to OWC where you can relive mexico 86 to your hearts content without boring the arse off everyone else.

[Not Brazil]

You've obviously misunderstood my post. I didn't say our flag had anything to do with religion, which I might add also has nothing to do with my identity.

Apologies.

It was youngirish who stated that "The orange is on our flag to represent the Protestant community, the white peace and the Catholics are represented by green"

You went on to state: "However, he did explain what the flag means so if our flag is supposed to be about finding peace between the two communities how would you have designed it?"

Amazing how members of the occupied 6 crawl from the woodwork and back onto the ireland board when this topic raises its head.

Imagine Northern Ireland fans wanting to engage in a discussion about a proposed demise of their team.

Amazing.

[janeymac]

Glad we cleared that up then. Obviously I only mentioned mentioned it in response to Janey Mac's spurious, dishonest claim of €4 billion transferring.

See post @ 1.07pm. You need to read up on your St. Andrews Agreement!