O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[kingdomkerry]

Heh. It's obviously two separate countries- there's an international border separating them. And the two countries are just as clearly, two states.

Even Sinn Fein have largely dropped that foreign occupation nonsense. Northern Ireland is populated almost entirely by Irish people, the vast majority of whom can trace their Irish ancestry back for centuries. Their majority is manufactured only in the sense that they're both numerous (unionists have been ca 20% of the population of Ireland since the 19th century) and localised (in the area that's now NI). If the border was drawn differently- down the river Foyle say, with only Waterside in NI) the nationalist minority would be smaller than now.

Let's see your evidence for nationalists increasing to 51% and beyond. In the 2007 NIA election, it was 41.4% (SF 26.2%, SDLP 15.2%). To force the end of partition you'd need pretty much all the Alliance and Green voters, plus health campaigners and even a few unionists, to change sides. It isn't going to happen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2.../html/main.stm

Actually the last census is a better indicator It was 44% Catholic in 2001. It tends to go up about 2.5% every ten years. It is estimated on current trends that in 2025 approx there will be a catholic majority.

You may find these maps of interest.. [COLOR=#0000ff]http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map10.htm[/COLOR] That was from 1991.

This one is more detailed and based on the 2001 census. [COLOR=#0000ff]http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/2001religionwardsni2.jpg[/COLOR]

These tables give a good indication of a trend over the last 40 years or so. [COLOR=#0000ff]http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm[/COLOR] Please scroll down about a third of the way for a particularly interesting table .

[paul_oshea]

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way, are by no means representative of the vast bulk of the Green and White Army; neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans - Protestant and Catholic - from making the atmosphere at WP as good as you'll get anywhere, a fact recognised by impartial observers both within and outwith NI. Indeed, the only people who are "intimidated" at Windsor these days are our opponents - in the nicest possible way!

Besides, if I were to bother searching through this Message Board, it wouldn't take me long to find occasional examples of misbehaviour by ROI fans. ("Today I was ashamed to be Irish", or somesuch?)

It would appear that you don't let that put you off following your team, nor should it, since the culprits there are equally unrepresentative of, and reviled by, the overwhelming majority of true and decent ROI fans.

Sadly, most, if not all, groups of supporters have their minority of ********s amongst their ranks. As such, they are rather like the Human Appendix: a small, vestigial relic of former times, which no longer serves any purpose, but which rumbles from time to time. Ninety nine per cent of the time it is more trouble than it is worth to operate and remove it, unless it threatens to erupt and spill its poison throughout our entire system.

The NI football team is nowhere near that stage, mind; indeed, we are getting further away than ever - as any impartial observer would recognise.

Then again, with your sneering references and "hit and run" sniping on this topic, it is plain for all to see that you are as far from impartiality as your team is from winning the World Cup - with or without the help of "the North"!

P.S. Do you even know what a "Troll" is?

Everytime I read this type of related post of yours I get a little more agitated. The attitude you appear to have, is one of laissez faire, ah sure doesn't everyone have it, sure we don't listen to them anyhow so its fine, it doesn't really exist lets sweep it under the carpet. This is the same sort of attitude you get from EL supporters when it comes to hooligans, you have to accept its their and actually do something about it. I hate this "denial all, us against the world, our little group, small minded-balllygobackwards mentality". Stand up and admit to it, the first step in the solution of a problem is being able to see the problem, and admitting there is one. Its always the same rhetoric.

Here, I think this is what you are looking for KK
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg

[janeymac]

Unless you are saying the NI team should be scrapped due to low crowds - in which case the same should apply to a dozen other UEFA Members - what relevance does that have to the question of a combined Ireland team? Indeed, what business is it of yours whether we play our games in front of 100 fans or 100,000?

No, I'm not saying it should be scrapped because of low crowds. I just wondering why you are not seeking to promote the game fully, because, based on attendance figures for other sports in N. Ireland, NI Football should be able to attract a hell of a lot more spectators - and perhaps should be trying to cater for them with a national stadium.

You don't know what you're talking about. The fact that the National Rugby team attracts huge crowds 4 or 5 times a year - as much a social occasion as anything else - should not be allowed to distort the true picture.
Not only has Football many more registered players than rugby, but on an average weekend it attracts more spectators as well. Compare for example the crowds over the last five years of Cardiff Blues - playing in the top tier of Welsh rugby, inc. Europe with those of Cardiff City, a mediocre team in the second tier of a League outside their own country.
Welsh Rugby never advertises the fact that it is effectively confined to the Valleys and South Wales, unlike Football, whose reach encompasses the entire country.
But your analogy is useful in another way. With the top Welsh football clubs playing in England, the National team perenially unable ever to qualify for anything and crowds in decline, why not combine the Welsh and England football teams?
True, only Ryan Giggs and Neville Southall would have got a place in such a team in recent years; then again, only Jonny Evans would get a place in the combined Ireland team which its proponents advocate. And besides, England and Wales really ARE one country...

First of all, Welsh rugby has been 'messed' about a bit with professionalism - the Blues/Scarletts etc. are recent 'manufactured Regions/Clubs' - completely unlike the Four Professional Irish teams which have a very long history & tradition. Though, I'd say as soon as one of the Welsh Regions actually wins something of note like the HCup, they will attract support.

Do you ever think that some very talented protestant kid who does not remember the troubles and has been away from NI in Arsenal/Man Utd/Rangers academy) might think, "feck this, I think I'm a good player and I'd love some chance of getting to play in a World Cup to compete against the best. Whatever chances the ROI have, NI's are less. I think I'll declare for ROI, sure we're all Irish anyway, or so they keep telling me over here in Britain."

My question - do you not feel a bit guilty about holding back the really talented youngsters from reaching their full potential?

Edit: Kid in Rangers Academy (or Celtic for that matter) would probably know all about the Troubles!

[co. down green]

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way

neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans

A very 'impartial' description, eg?.

[Wolfie]

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way, are by no means representative of the vast bulk of the Green and White Army; neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans - Protestant and Catholic - from making the atmosphere at WP as good as you'll get anywhere, a fact recognised by impartial observers both within and outwith NI. Indeed, the only people who are "intimidated" at Windsor these days are our opponents - in the nicest possible way!

See you all in 2011.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/...urnations.html

[janeymac]

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

Ulster Rugby would like to increase their capacity - encouraged by Leinster Rugby who are getting an average of 16/18 k since they moved to better facilities in the RDS. Most people think that Leinster Rugby is only supported by one postal code in Dublin!

As regards the GAA - take Munster as an example - similar population (slightly less) than NI and all sports fairly popular. Three stadia with 50,000 capacity plus numerous others with 30-40,000 capacity. The new Thomond Park (rugby) will have 26,000!

Kildare GAA (one county) are building a 25,000 capacity stadium in the middle of nowhere, that is inspired by Sunderland's Stadium of Light!

What I can't figure out is if the GAA / Rugby can attract these kind of numbers, the NI Football team should be able to do the same, considering they are participating in international competition.

[EalingGreen]

Everytime I read this type of related post of yours I get a little more agitated. The attitude you appear to have, is one of laissez faire, ah sure doesn't everyone have it, sure we don't listen to them anyhow so its fine, it doesn't really exist lets sweep it under the carpet. This is the same sort of attitude you get from EL supporters when it comes to hooligans, you have to accept its their and actually do something about it. I hate this "denial all, us against the world, our little group, small minded-balllygobackwards mentality". Stand up and admit to it, the first step in the solution of a problem is being able to see the problem, and admitting there is one. Its always the same rhetoric.

Here, I think this is what you are looking for KK
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg

Absolutely wrong. I am completely committed to initiatives like "Football For All" and "Sea of Green" whereby the authorities and fans between them have completely transformed the atmosphere at Windsor for internationals.

Indeed, the very existence of these campaigns is clear proof that we recognise we had (and still have) a problem. Otherwise, why would so many people be spending so much time and money on them?

However, when it comes to the "NS" chant, I really can't see what can easily and usefully be done to end this, other than by continuing the process of education and encouragement which has been so successful in every other aspect of crowd behaviour and which eventually may see an end to this particular issue.

In a way, the NS chant is the "Last Stand" of the Unthinking and the Knuckle Draggers. And I think they use it because they know it is hard to eradicate. Think about it. It is hardly illegal to shout it, nor could it reasonably be made so (freedom of speech etc).
And what else are the majority of fans who disapprove to do? Staying silent helps the shouters. Shouting something else only amplifies the effect (as well as disrespecting the Anthem). Pulling them up on it only causes a row - verbal, if not physical.
And even if it were considered to be in some way "incitement", how are Stewards/Police going to intervene to extract isolated individuals, surrounded by women, kids etc, from all three stands, on the basis of a two second chant which has long since ceased? What do you do if its kids who are chanting it - as often is the case?
In the end, to seek to confront it without a sound legal and practical basis for doing so would only give these idiots the publicity and "victimhood" they desire.
(An example of the above was the Neil Lennon booing incident, where a few hundred fans - possibly connected with Linfield/Rangers? - turned up to have a go at Lennon and achieved worldwide publicity for their efforts. Meanwhile, the next match, when they were nowhere to be seen and Lennon got cheered by the crowd for his every touch, went entirely unremarked by the media)

As a Poll on OWC currently demonstrates (90%+ condemning it), chanting NS is not acceptable, but I honestly believe that any "cure" would be worse than the "illness". Let them get it out of their system, endure the 90 seconds the anthem takes and just get on with the bloody game.

[geysir]

I'm sure this is wrong. Ian Paisley- sectarian bigot and religious maniac that he is- makes no attempt to deny his Irishness.

I wouldn´t base my sureness on what Ian Mór is supposed to have said.
I am just taking my notes from the different surveys done trying to make statistical sense out of the complicated identies in NI.

Generally Unionists see themselves as British, generally only 3% of them see themselves as having an Irish identity along with the British Identity.
The "substate identity" is Northern Irish, (aka the escape identity).
I can´t remember what slice of the pie the Northern Irish identity has amongst Unionist?
My connected point being, as EG copped onto, Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team even in the event of a 50.1% referdum in favour of political Unity.
Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak.

[osarusan]

I wouldn´t base my sureness on what Ian Mór is supposed to have said.
I am just taking my notes from the different surveys done trying to make statistical sense out of the complicated identies in NI.

Generally Unionists see themselves as British, generally only 3% of them see themselves as having an Irish identity along with the British Identity.
The "substate identity" is Northern Irish, (aka the escape identity).
I can´t remember what slice of the pie the Northern Irish identity has amongst Unionist?
My connected point being, as EG copped onto, Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team even in the event of a 50.1% referdum in favour of political Unity.
Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak.

Do you have any sources for those figures?

[EalingGreen]

No, I'm not saying it should be scrapped because of low crowds. I just wondering why you are not seeking to promote the game fully, because, based on attendance figures for other sports in N. Ireland, NI Football should be able to attract a hell of a lot more spectators - and perhaps should be trying to cater for them with a national stadium.

We are trying to promote the game, we are being successful and we do want a new National Stadium. Our problem is that the IFA (like the FA, SFA FAW and FAI) has nowhere nearly enough money to build a new stadium on our own. However, unlike those other Associations, we are unable to secure the equivalent Governmental assistance which has seen Wembley/Hampden/Millennium/Lansdowne re-built.
Instead, our political Lords and Masters in Whitehall determined, purely for political reasons, that we should be forced into the wrong stadium in the wrong location (Maze).
Therefore, if we are to overturn that, we have to be modest in our demands - inexpensive, 25-30k - otherwise the response from the backers of the Maze will ask why we want more, when recent crowds have often been so much lower. (They are only talking about 42k capacity for the Maze because the GAA demanded it)

First of all, Welsh rugby has been 'messed' about a bit with professionalism - the Blues/Scarletts etc. are recent 'manufactured Regions/Clubs' - completely unlike the Four Professional Irish teams which have a very long history & tradition. Though, I'd say as soon as one of the Welsh Regions actually wins something of note like the HCup, they will attract support.

Don't want to get side-tracked onto Welsh football/rugby. Suffice it to say, just ask anyone who knows the true situation in Wales, who isn't either a football-hating egg chaser or someone who has swallowed the WRFU spin, and they will tell you that football in Wales is still bigger than rugby, by every measure, except international crowds on half a dozen occasions a year. And that has always been the case, btw

Do you ever think that some very talented protestant kid who does not remember the troubles and has been away from NI in Arsenal/Man Utd/Rangers academy) might think, "feck this, I think I'm a good player and I'd love some chance of getting to play in a World Cup to compete against the best. Whatever chances the ROI have, NI's are less. I think I'll declare for ROI, sure we're all Irish anyway, or so they keep telling me over here in Britain."

My question - do you not feel a bit guilty about holding back the really talented youngsters from reaching their full potential?

Edit: Kid in Rangers Academy (or Celtic for that matter) would probably know all about the Troubles!

There appears presently to be nothing preventing any NI youngster - Prod, RC or Athiest - from opting for ROI (for whatever motive). So how exactly are we "holding them back"?

In fact, if you think about it, there is absolutely nothing to stop such a kid, after the requisite three years residence in Manchester or Glasgow, from representing England or Scotland - both of whom offer a much better chance of career advancement than either Irish team.

But at the risk of straying (temporarily, I hope) from discussing a combined team to the issue of Eligibility for the two separate teams, I would not feel in the slightest bit guilty.

That is because I don't actually see which international team you represent as being a matter of "choice", any more than you can "choose" where you were born! The whole point about international football, as opposed to club football, is that you cannot just "pick and choose" who you play for.

This should especially be so (imo), to prevent mercenary considerations (money) prevailing over national pride when representing your country.

For myself, even if the best players from ROI or GB were suddenly made eligible for NI, so that we were guaranteed to qualify for every tournament, I would much rather do without, thanks very much, since it would no longer be "my" team, or "Our Wee Country".

Which, getting us back on-topic, is all I really want - win, lose or draw.

P.S. If ypou look at our record of qualifying for World Cup Finals, it is every bit as good as ROI's - arguably better, since we have also made it to the last 8 (1958) and last 12 (1982).

P.P.S. David Healy was formerly a talented kid in the MU Academy, who was just coming up to 23 when ROI went to Japan/Korea in 2002. I can guarantee you that had Mick McCarthy offered him a place on the plane, there would have been zero chance of his ever accepting. Which is precisely that sort of dedication which transforms him from a journeyman for his club to a star for his country. I don't ever want to see that removed from international football.

I wouldn´t base my sureness on what Ian Mór is supposed to have said.
I am just taking my notes from the different surveys done trying to make statistical sense out of the complicated identies in NI.

Generally Unionists see themselves as British, generally only 3% of them see themselves as having an Irish identity along with the British Identity.
The "substate identity" is Northern Irish, (aka the escape identity).
I can´t remember what slice of the pie the Northern Irish identity has amongst Unionist?
My connected point being, as EG copped onto, Unionist identity is strong enough to continue with their own football team even in the event of a 50.1% referdum in favour of political Unity.
Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak.

Please do not characterise the NI football community as a "Unionist" one, or that I see it as being so.

Whilst there is obviously a crossover, not all NI football fans are Unionists, just as, indeed, not all Unionists are NI football fans.

So by all means debate the future of the NI football team - I will happily join in. However, if you want to discuss the future of Irish Unionism, please take it elsewhere.

P.S. I didn't need you to make any points for me to "cop onto"; I was quite capable of arriving at my presnt stance unaided, thanks very much.

[Gather round]

Actually the last census is a better indicator It was 44% Catholic in 2001. It tends to go up about 2.5% every ten years. It is estimated on current trends that in 2025 approx there will be a catholic majority

No, recent voting behavior is the best indication of future voting behavior (which is what will determine any end to the border). Not all those from Catholic background in NI vote for nationalist parties. In towns like Carrickfergus or Bangor, nationalist parties share of the vote is significantly less than the Catholic population. As I said, if nationalists only got 42% last year, that isn't going to transfer into a majority unless 8% of the entire poll suddenly starts voting for them. Which isn't going to happen.A significant, if small, electorate in NI is heartily fed up with orange-green politics (like many readers of this forum, possibly )

The maps you quote are interesting, but don't contradict any of the above.

you have to accept its their and actually do something about it. I hate this "denial all, us against the world, our little group, small minded-balllygobackwards mentality". Stand up and admit to it, the first step in the solution of a problem is being able to see the problem, and admitting there is one. Its always the same rhetoric

Chill, Paul I think NI fans have done this, ie recognised the problem and tried to do something about it. Without getting too rhetorical on ye, like.

Though, I'd say as soon as one of the Welsh Regions actually wins something of note like the HCup, they will attract support

As Ealing said above, the club game in Wales has long attracted modest crowds in comparison with international games. Swansea City attract significantly more than the Ospreys even while in English Division 3.

My question - do you not feel a bit guilty about holding back the really talented youngsters from reaching their full potential?

No, we aren't holding back anyone's potential. It's a pointless question.

Ulster Rugby would like to increase their capacity

Their support has rejected the Maze white elephant. Where's your evidence of any other plans apart from modest improvements to Ravenhill?

The new Thomond Park (rugby) will have 26,000!...What I can't figure out is if the GAA / Rugby can attract these kind of numbers, the NI Football team should be able to do the same, considering they are participating in international competition

Er...NI fans are arguing for just that, a stadium of similar size to the planned Thomond refurb. What's your point?

The "substate identity" is Northern Irish

Let's not get too bogged down sociologically. It's still Irish, even if many of them consider it subservient to Britishness and that obviously irritates nationalists. We're all Irish, ye might as well accept it. BTW I was quoting Paisley sr both as as a stereotype who you might assume to be anti-irish, but at the same time someone who makes no attempt to hide his Irishness.

Unionist national identity with Ireland according to the polls is very weak

Many may consider their part of Ireland a region/ province of Britain. So what, it and they are still Irish.

[EalingGreen]

A very 'impartial' description, eg?.

I am an NI fan, so of course I am "partial". But you are confusing "impartiality" with "fairness". From my experience, I am entitled to comment on my fellow NI fans and when I characterise some of them as unthinking, but the rest as decent, I think that is fair comment.

What I took exception to with your post was your commenting on a set of fans (NI) of which you clearly have no knowledge, in a disparaging and stereotypical way. That is hardly fair, but it is partial (imo)

P.S. Still no answer to my question as to when you were last at an NI match, if ever.

[osarusan]

As such, they are rather like the Human Appendix: a small, vestigial relic of former times, which no longer serves any purpose, but which rumbles from time to time. Ninety nine per cent of the time it is more trouble than it is worth to operate and remove it, unless it threatens to erupt and spill its poison throughout our entire system.

It's more trouble than it's worth to stop fans singing "No Surrender"? More trouble for who?

and when I characterise some of them as unthinking, but the rest as decent, I think that is fair comment.

"Unthinking" - that's a bit of a cop out when describing these fans, I'd say. Do you really think that's the adjective that best describes them?

EG, I agree with you regarding the issue of a "United Ireland" team (which would be a total misnomer), but you do gloss over actions by NI fans to certain degree.

[Drumcondra 69er]

That is because I don't actually see which international team you represent as being a matter of "choice", any more than you can "choose" where you were born! The whole point about international football, as opposed to club football, is that you cannot just "pick and choose" who you play for.

P.S. If ypou look at our record of qualifying for World Cup Finals, it is every bit as good as ROI's - arguably better, since we have also made it to the last 8 (1958) and last 12 (1982).

1. Not a fan of the parentage rule so? To quote a famous English (Irish?) man 'Being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' (I'm sure Jesus was delighted to hear that!)

2. While we've qualified for the same amount of World cups this is of course nonsense, the very fact that we've qualified for the second phase of every World cup we've been in whereas you only garnered a point against Algeria while going out in 1986 would dictate that. We've won more games, drawn more and lost less then you and have a a better record by any possible measure. Even counting the win against Romania and loss against Spain as draws we've still a better record.

[EalingGreen]

It's more trouble than it's worth to stop fans singing "No Surrender"? More trouble for who?


"Unthinking" - that's a bit of a cop out when describing these fans, I'd say. Do you really think that's the adjective that best describes them?

EG, I agree with you regarding the issue of a "United Ireland" team (which would be a total misnomer), but you do gloss over actions by NI fans to certain degree.

What I meant was, it would cause more trouble than it would cure, since it would invariably lead to tension, scuffles and likely much worse, to try and eject a few hundred people for a two-word chant before a game.
And even if it could be done, it would inevitably lead to them assembling their mates in numbers for the next game and doing even worse.
And there is no way you could expect Stewards to deal with such an escalation, it would need Police assistance. Most likely, the Police will judge that it is in the greater good not to proceed.
And even if they did, they and the IFA would be taken to Court, since it is breaking no law, or regulation, for someone to use the words "No Surrender" in any environment, public or private.
Even a Police charge of "behaviour liable to lead to a breech of the peace" would have no chance of succeeding, since it has never disturbed the peace before.
Let's be practical here, half the fans aren't even in their seats, or are downstairs in the bogs, whilst the Anthem is being played. NS is two seconds during a 90 second song, which however objectionable, need not actually threaten anyone, or otherwise spoil their enjoyment of the day. Which is not to say I condone it - quite the contrary.

As for those who do it, in my experience, half of them are kids who don't even think about what they're doing - hence my Pavlov's Dogs/knee jerk reaction. As for the other half, I have no trouble describing them as idiots, even bigots, but that isn't going to change them, is it?

And if this appears to you to be glossing over it, ask yourself this. What has your team done, e.g. to prevent individuals adding on "Up the Ra" to TFOA, or to stop them booing Rangers players at Lansdowne, or to prevent the provocative behaviour when Israel came to Dublin?

And before anyone leaps in, I am not by any means tarring the overwhelming majority of decent ROI fans with that brush, nor detracting from the willingness of your authorities to deal with it. I am merely pointing out some examples with which you may be familiar to demonstrate just how difficult some issues are, and also to put them in their proper perspective (i.e. serious in themselves, but not representative of the true, wider picture)

Plus, when I have always tried to be frank about our shortcomings, I get a bit fed up constantly having to defend ourselves to the nth degree, when the real story of NI fans' behaviour these days is an overwhelmingly positive one.

[paul_oshea]

Absolutely wrong. I am completely committed to initiatives like "Football For All" and "Sea of Green" whereby the authorities and fans between them have completely transformed the atmosphere at Windsor for internationals.

Indeed, the very existence of these campaigns is clear proof that we recognise we had (and still have) a problem. Otherwise, why would so many people be spending so much time and money on them?

However, when it comes to the "NS" chant, I really can't see what can easily and usefully be done to end this, other than by continuing the process of education and encouragement which has been so successful in every other aspect of crowd behaviour and which eventually may see an end to this particular issue.

In a way, the NS chant is the "Last Stand" of the Unthinking and the Knuckle Draggers. And I think they use it because they know it is hard to eradicate. Think about it. It is hardly illegal to shout it, nor could it reasonably be made so (freedom of speech etc).
And what else are the majority of fans who disapprove to do? Staying silent helps the shouters. Shouting something else only amplifies the effect (as well as disrespecting the Anthem). Pulling them up on it only causes a row - verbal, if not physical.
And even if it were considered to be in some way "incitement", how are Stewards/Police going to intervene to extract isolated individuals, surrounded by women, kids etc, from all three stands, on the basis of a two second chant which has long since ceased? What do you do if its kids who are chanting it - as often is the case?
In the end, to seek to confront it without a sound legal and practical basis for doing so would only give these idiots the publicity and "victimhood" they desire.
(An example of the above was the Neil Lennon booing incident, where a few hundred fans - possibly connected with Linfield/Rangers? - turned up to have a go at Lennon and achieved worldwide publicity for their efforts. Meanwhile, the next match, when they were nowhere to be seen and Lennon got cheered by the crowd for his every touch, went entirely unremarked by the media)

As a Poll on OWC currently demonstrates (90%+ condemning it), chanting NS is not acceptable, but I honestly believe that any "cure" would be worse than the "illness". Let them get it out of their system, endure the 90 seconds the anthem takes and just get on with the bloody game.

Its happened at parkhead and away on tours, also fans policing fans. Its quite simple. If you are saying that your own people cant control them then this might be the actual problem

Gather I think you missed the point, I know about the initiatives and so and so, thats not what I was getting at. EG though, was clearer in his own statement, though his conclusion still came back to the same point I was getting at. He simply states "ah sure just let them" , which is rather sad considering he spent 4 paras before that explaining all the "good" he beleives in.

[EalingGreen]

1. Not a fan of the parentage rule so? To quote a famous English (Irish?) man 'Being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' (I'm sure Jesus was delighted to hear that!)

Jeez, do I have to spell everything out?
When I pointed out that no-one can choose where he was born, I took it as understood that neither can he choose where his parents (or grandparents) are born.

2. While we've qualified for the same amount of World cups this is of course nonsense, the very fact that we've qualified for the second phase of every World cup we've been in whereas you only garnered a point against Algeria while going out in 1986 would dictate that. We've won more games, drawn more and lost less then you and have a a better record by any possible measure. Even counting the win against Romania and loss against Spain as draws we've still a better record.

Wrong.
ROI have qualified for 3 Finals, as have NI.
ROI failed to get beyond the Group stage once (1994), as did NI (1986)
ROI got to the last 8 once (1990), as did NI (1958)
ROI got to the last 16 in 2002, NI got to the last 12 in 1982
ROI have won 2 games in WC Finals, NI have won 3.

Therefore, since neither team has any realistic chance of winning the damned thing, any young Irish player who wants to go to a World Cup would be as well advised to throw his lot in with NI as ROI. Unless, of course, he's from ROI, in which case we neither need nor want him (nothing personal, btw).

[danonion]

Jeez, do I have to spell everything out?
When I pointed out that no-one can choose where he was born, I took it as understood that neither can he choose where his parents (or grandparents) are born.



Wrong.
ROI have qualified for 3 Finals, as have NI.
ROI failed to get beyond the Group stage once (1994), as did NI (1986)
ROI got to the last 8 once (1990), as did NI (1958)
ROI got to the last 16 in 2002, NI got to the last 12 in 1982
ROI have won 2 games in WC Finals, NI have won 3.

Therefore, since neither team has any realistic chance of winning the damned thing, any young Irish player who wants to go to a World Cup would be as well advised to throw his lot in with NI as ROI. Unless, of course, he's from ROI, in which case we neither need nor want him (nothing personal, btw).

Call me crazy, but I seem to remember Ireland playing Holland in the 1994 World Cup round of 16....

[youngirish]

Therefore, since neither team has any realistic chance of winning the damned thing, any young Irish player who wants to go to a World Cup would be as well advised to throw his lot in with NI as ROI. Unless, of course, he's from ROI, in which case we neither need nor want him (nothing personal, btw).

The important point here that you always seem to miss in your posts is that all your appearances in the World Cup are far in the past and you haven't looked like qualifying for one since 1986.

Your world cup record in anything that might resemble the modern game has been dismal besides a lucky win in 1982 that anyone watching the game could scarcely believe you managed to pull off.

[kingdomkerry]

Agreed. Id be very suprised if i saw NI qualify for a WC in my lifetime. Ireland on the other hand will always be there and there abouts.