Trapp. Please give these lads a chance.

[BigmanCas]

can a player come back onto the pitch to take a penalty? my memory is that harte had gone off by the time we won that second pen

You are correct - he was taken off in the 82 min and replaced with David Connolly (my god!!!!). Forgive me - I had convinced myself down through the years that Robbie demanded the ball from Harte. There you go - he had to hit it so. ah well - I always used that situation to portray Keane's lionheart - it didn't happen. Thanks for pointing that out JB.

[jbyrne]

no problem!

to be honest i dont ever think that anyone said that harte was the real deal but after irwins premature retiremant we didnt have a whole lot of choice. given our recent qualifying disasters i would be reluctant to give anyone who helped us qualify with that team a hard time. also, it is a well known fact that harte played through a lot of pain in that world cup. had injections that effectively numbed his foot to allow him play through the pain.... cant fault a man for effort and committment!

[tetsujin1979]

You are correct - he was taken off in the 82 min and replaced with David Connolly (my god!!!!).

Connolly had been performing well in training during the World Cup, I remember telling my brother Connolly had come on, and he said "good, he's been banging them in in training"

[NeilMcD]

And yet you will still find a fair few Ian Harte supporters on here despite the fact that 6 years ago in Korea he was a liability defensively (lacking pace and positional sense) and I don't think he has improved since.

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=870

You still love Jason McAteer despite the fact he was crap many times for us, all because he scored the goal against Holland. Sure Harte has scored vital goals before maybe not as dramatic as that. To me Harte an McAteer are on the same level

[paul_oshea]

ya they are both crap.

NO in fairness mcateer had some decent games for us. At least he never DIRECTLY caused goals for us....harte running backwards looking in front of us used always get in trouble.

[Stuttgart88]

The point I'm trying to get across is why people on foot.ie are constantly clinging to flavours of the month and claiming that they "deserve" a place in the squad. What a lot of people fail to grasp is that for a new squad player to come in somebody has to go out. So while Garvan, Tabb or whoever might be good or playing well. If Carsley, Ireland, S.Reid, Andy Reid or whoever is playing better then they DON'T deserve a place in the squad and that's the case. Most of the players people around here as "undiscovered talents" are championship players playing at a lower level than the people they're competing for a place for and have no international experience.

We've endured 2 years of Stan calling every joe lapira up on these premises and it needs to stop. If they're good enough for Ireland they'll be good enough for a top league team, it's simple. I'd be quite happy if Trap ignored every championship outfield player not named Clinton Morrison to be honest.

Not quite true. The point I've been trying to make across various threads is that, as an example, Liam lawrence would have been a better choice at RHM than Andy Keogh against Germany. I'm all for giving promising kids a chance, though I think we shouldn't be unnecessarily diminishing our U21 team, but a Championship right sided midfielder is surely better than a Championnship forward at right midfield.

Furthermore, I'd always go with the better player, not the player at the club in the higher division. There are championship players more than capable of playing well in a good international team, it's a question of looking at them on merit and judging on how they'd fare in a team dynamic. As said before, you don't want to populate the whole squad with Championship players but some Championship players are among our best 23 so if they're good enough, pick them.

Also, you can't say that to be good enough for Ireland means you're good enough for a top league team. If A causes B, it doesn't also mean that B causes A. Simple logical error!

[NeilMcD]

Yeah when Beenhakker took over at Poland he picked players on merit and awful lot of the players he picked where from the Polish league, rather than players playing abroad etc. They qualified top of their group in some style due to the fact that they had a great team ethic.

[backstothewall]

The point I'm trying to get across is why people on foot.ie are constantly clinging to flavours of the month and claiming that they "deserve" a place in the squad. What a lot of people fail to grasp is that for a new squad player to come in somebody has to go out. So while Garvan, Tabb or whoever might be good or playing well. If Carsley, Ireland, S.Reid, Andy Reid or whoever is playing better then they DON'T deserve a place in the squad and that's the case. Most of the players people around here as "undiscovered talents" are championship players playing at a lower level than the people they're competing for a place for and have no international experience.

We've endured 2 years of Stan calling every joe lapira up on these premises and it needs to stop. If they're good enough for Ireland they'll be good enough for a top league team, it's simple. I'd be quite happy if Trap ignored every championship outfield player not named Clinton Morrison to be honest.

I agree completely

There is a case for taking a punt on a young player and calling him up. But not in every squad, and certainly not 3 or 4 of them.

If we are to do that we should be doing it in positions where we are weak (I don't think midfield could be described as such given the earlier list).

The classic example of this working is Johnny Evans for the north. He hadn't made his full league debut when he was called up, but was thrown in at the deep end and on the back of his international performances his career has flourished. Without that chance at international level i would suggest he would not be in the Premier League right now.

The positions we are undoubtably weakest in right now are at full back, left back particularly. So rather than calling up untried midfielders, would it not be better to call up an untried left back and see how he gets on??

Stephen O'Halloran would have fitted the bill perfectly, and once fit I would love to see him get his chance.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree completely

There is a case for taking a punt on a young player and calling him up. But not in every squad, and certainly not 3 or 4 of them.

If we are to do that we should be doing it in positions where we are weak (I don't think midfield could be described as such given the earlier list).

The classic example of this working is Johnny Evans for the north. He hadn't made his full league debut when he was called up, but was thrown in at the deep end and on the back of his international performances his career has flourished. Without that chance at international level i would suggest he would not be in the Premier League right now.

The positions we are undoubtably weakest in right now are at full back, left back particularly. So rather than calling up untried midfielders, would it not be better to call up an untried left back and see how he gets on??

Stephen O'Halloran would have fitted the bill perfectly, and once fit I would love to see him get his chance.

Actually, what you're saying is that you agree with me, and disagree with Ciaran Pick the players on their merit, not on where their club is in the league table.

Also, you don't think our midfield is weak? I'll put this to you: when was the last time you were happy with the performance of our midfield pairing? Off the top of my head I'd say Keane & Kilbane in Paris in October '04 (I think). We've been shyte in central midfield in almost every competitive game since, and most of the friendlies.

[tetsujin1979]

If A causes B, it doesn't also mean that B causes A. Simple logical error!

it means that Not B OR A is always true! ah predicate logic....

I'll put this to you: when was the last time you were happy with the performance of our midfield pairing?

Thought Potter and Kilbane were decent against Ecuador. Not world beating, but solid.

[Stuttgart88]

Potter & Reid in Denmark were decent, and Gibson did well too when he came on. That's why I added the rider though! I thought it's been obvious for ages that we're lacking a properly competive central midfield. If CM is holding its own then our lack of cover at CB isn't as exposed etc. etc.

[paul_oshea]

it means that Not B OR A is always true! ah predicate logic....

nevermind!

[geysir]

What Ciaran wrote was
'If Carsley, Ireland, S.Reid, Andy Reid or whoever is playing better then they (the rawer talent) DON'T deserve a place in the squad and that's the case'
That statement doesn't need much correction, it's basically saying pick your best players.


decent midfield performances
Carsley & Reid v Germany
Carsley & Reid & the Monaghan lad V Czech Rep.

[finnpark]

Joey O'Brien MOTM 2night for Bolton Wanderers in Europe. Hes only about 21, Ireland's best prospect along with Long.

[Irish_Praha]

Joey O'Brien MOTM 2night for Bolton Wanderers in Europe. Hes only about 21, Ireland's best prospect along with Long.

Where was he playing? RB or CMF?

[finnpark]

Where was he playing? RB or CMF?

CMF

Hes really come on this season. The last time he played for Ireland he was just back from injury and was really rusty. Hes getting better with every game.

[paul_oshea]

i watched, thought he was good, but i dont think i would go to far as to say he was the best. They all did well, nothing spectacular.

the thing is they probably could have won it had they sent out their best side....

[kingdom hoop]

What Ciaran wrote was
'If Carsley, Ireland, S.Reid, Andy Reid or whoever is playing better then they (the rawer talent) DON'T deserve a place in the squad and that's the case'
That statement doesn't need much correction, it's basically saying pick your best players.

Statements of the obvious don't need much correction.

But you've done Ciaran a favour there; he was coming out with some awful silly stuff. (For one thing he equated being deserving of a squad place with what league a player plays in.) Anyway, the important point is that we've max 15 players who are genuine Premiership players, so the next ten in line are either struggling in the Premiership or showing well in the Championship.

But we shouldn't be infatuated with what league someone plays in. Be realistic: Talent is talent, and is obvious. Necessity is necessity, and forces your arm. Garvan might be in with a shout as he looks like a natural. Delaney or Ledger might be in with a shout because of necessity. We just have to accept that after our top bunch there isn't much difference between the rest so just sit back, relax and wait for Trap to weave his magic. Nah, screw that, Rowlands for Ireland!

[eirebhoy]

Kerr and Macari thought he was Bolton's best player too. They showed 5 or 6 clips of him winning possession. They say he put in tremendous effort.

[Stuttgart88]

Statements of the obvious don't need much correction.

But you've done Ciaran a favour there; he was coming out with some awful silly stuff. (For one thing he equated being deserving of a squad place with what league a player plays in.) Anyway, the important point is that we've max 15 players who are genuine Premiership players, so the next ten in line are either struggling in the Premiership or showing well in the Championship.

But we shouldn't be infatuated with what league someone plays in. Be realistic: Talent is talent, and is obvious. Necessity is necessity, and forces your arm. Garvan might be in with a shout as he looks like a natural. Delaney or Ledger might be in with a shout because of necessity.

Well said that man.

Correct on those CM performances Geysir, but it's pretty sad when you can count good midfield performances in the last few years on the fingers of one hand.