Irish Declaration

[GavinZac]

Hi Gavin,

I have to pull you up on that one Im afraid. Indeed it may have the word 'Queen' and 'Rangers' in the name but I have been there many a time and I dont think you could find a club in South England with more irish connections. All the people I meet are 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation Irish and support Ireland in Rugby and the ROI in football. Not all of course

All the pubs in the vicinity are irish as well. I posted a list of them on an earlier thread.

Indeed the very reason that I support them is that my parents lived there for 9 years. My father was involved in the building of Shepards Bush hospital.

I know that, my own father is a fan, which is why I took the underground out there once it just sounds ultra British to the uninitiated.

[paul_oshea]

I agree 100% on what I have made bold in the above statement.

I live in Belgium for about 7 years now and along with my girlfriend, I intend to have children someday in the future. I will make sure that this kid be it boy or girl would support QPR/Muster/Ireland and Republic of Ireland in the football. This is I guess is because I am normal and when I am watching these matches on the television, I would want them on my knee supporting them with me. That is the dream of all fathers I guess.

Now there is small bolder standing in my way and that bolder is called ‘the Belgians’. They are apparently a strange breed. It is has become apparent to me after all my years of experience living there that they are not exactly proud of their country. Most of the time they don’t even know when they are playing their qualifiers, whether if it is for the EC or WC. On one occasion last year no broadcaster bought the rights to one of their qualifying matches. In the end they found out that none of them had bought it and one of them bought the match just to save the embarrassment. Can you imagine that happening here?

My point is that (and this is what gets me) is that they cannot do things like the above and then suddenly get a burst of patriotism when it comes to my unborn child.

I have mentioned the fact that I intend to rear my kid/s Irish when they are born, I get some looks from them but I don’t care. It is beyond important to me that whatever offspring I have they are the same as me and follow who I follow!

I guess the whole point of this post is that I cannot understand why parents in other countries don’t have the same feelings as me. Imagine if they were, imagine all the players we would have to choose from then?

Me wonders what the problem is?

Somewhere in their you are looking for the word "paramount" to substitute another word.

Some people dont like football, and as mad as it appears that is no slight on their patriotism. Just because the belgians dont follow their football team doesn't make them any less patriotic than you or I supporting Ireland. In the case of belgium though, its a whole can of worms really that run a lot deeper in the can than football or sport of any kind.

GZac, when you live away from home for a while it would probably be clearer. The simple answer is, in a world where barriers are being broken through mass immigration and opening up of "one world order" or maybe even NWO, identity is becoming a greater and greater need of people. Just look at the yanks, in a weird way, can you imagine in 100 years when the EU is 1 country and all the the rats running round trying to work out their actual identity?!

[GavinZac]

GZac, when you live away from home for a while it would probably be clearer. The simple answer is, in a world where barriers are being broken through mass immigration and opening up of "one world order" or maybe even NWO, identity is becoming a greater and greater need of people. Just look at the yanks, in a weird way, can you imagine in 100 years when the EU is 1 country and all the the rats running round trying to work out their actual identity?!

To go all hoity-toity on it, nationalism came about when napoleon wanted his soldiers to have a reason to kill people the same religion as them. Religion came about as another artificial 'tribe' mechanism, dividing people. If someday we manage to get by without needing an 'identity' based upon what is expected of us because of our birthplace, we'd all be much better off. I've gone into a way more detail on my views of this when we were discussing the Irish language and its relation to Irish culture.

Complete tangent there

International football: Be Irish, and be good. Those are the criteria In the absense of a definite definition of nationality, the best we can do is agree that we should avoid the type of lads who can take it or leave it.

[Deckydee]

Correctimundo. And to think people question our claim to Irishness. Sometimes I think they don't deserve us.



And most of them you mention are dumps of the first order...



Where's that then? It would save me a journey to Hammersmith or Charing Cross whenever I end up in A&E!

PP

Actually not all are dumps!

Quiet like the White Horse myself. Always found a good pint there. Looking forward to going back there in 2 weeks

Good question in regards to the hosiptal! Honestly I dont know! All I can tell is that whenever I come to Ireland for my yearly visit, I go for a drink with my father and when he has a few too many, he always tells me about how easy I have things these days and how when he was my age he was down in a hole in Shepards Bush while working on the hosiptal and lads roaring at him etc etc. So I just thought there was a hosiptal in Shepards Bush

[Deckydee]

I know that, my own father is a fan, which is why I took the underground out there once it just sounds ultra British to the uninitiated.

I know it does, doesnt it!!

What worse it that stupid nickname 'The Superhoops'

How childish is that?

[Deckydee]

Somewhere in their you are looking for the word "paramount" to substitute another word.

Some people dont like football, and as mad as it appears that is no slight on their patriotism. Just because the belgians dont follow their football team doesn't make them any less patriotic than you or I supporting Ireland. In the case of belgium though, its a whole can of worms really that run a lot deeper in the can than football or sport of any kind.

GZac, when you live away from home for a while it would probably be clearer. The simple answer is, in a world where barriers are being broken through mass immigration and opening up of "one world order" or maybe even NWO, identity is becoming a greater and greater need of people. Just look at the yanks, in a weird way, can you imagine in 100 years when the EU is 1 country and all the the rats running round trying to work out their actual identity?!

I am not sure to agree with you on that one Paul. I believe that football is an intergral part of national identity. Not that alone but it is also their attitude towards it as well. Take for a example a while ago a friend of mine was at my house for a glass of champagne (yes, welcome to Europe) and I asked him did he catch the result of the match last night against Spain and his answer was "Het kan mij niet schelen" Thats dutch for 'I dont care' I dont know any Irish who would say that if we had played Spain the night before.

And your statement on 'a can or worms' - Indeed dont get me started!!

[Metrostars]

The problem is that you cannot measure how "Irish" a person is. If you live in a foreign country no matter what you do, you are not living an Irish life. Does practicing Irish culture make you more Irish if you don't live in Ireland? e.g. I've lived in the US for 15 years but was never really fond of the Irish Pub scene in the Bronx/Woodlawn/wherever, I only went to Gaelic Park twice in the time I've been here and I never went to the local AOH organization. Does that make me any less Irish than those who do all that stuff?

I have 3 kids born here in the US, we travel back to Galway for a week every summer but that doesnt neccessarily make them more "Irish". On the other hand, there are two kids in my daughter's class at school(8 years old) who are probably 3rd or 4th generation Irish who do Irish Step Dancing classes every week. Are they more Irish than my daughter who prefers to do gymnastics instead? I don't think so, I've spoken to their parents who told me they have never even been to Ireland.

I can pretend and say that my kids are Irish but like it or not, my kids are American. I can show them what it means to be Irish but unless you emerse yourself into experiencing Irish life, then you are not Irish. And to do that, you have to live in Ireland. I don't think Gary Breen is any more Irish than Clinton Morrison just because he played Gaelie Football as a kid.

So I think if a player is eligible and wants to play for Ireland, then he should.

[paul_oshea]

The problem is that you cannot measure how "Irish" a person is. If you live in a foreign country no matter what you do, you are not living an Irish life. Does practicing Irish culture make you more Irish if you don't live in Ireland? e.g. I've lived in the US for 15 years but was never really fond of the Irish Pub scene in the Bronx/Woodlawn/wherever, I only went to Gaelic Park twice in the time I've been here and I never went to the local AOH organization. Does that make me any less Irish than those who do all that stuff?

I have 3 kids born here in the US, we travel back to Galway for a week every summer but that doesnt neccessarily make them more "Irish". On the other hand, there are two kids in my daughter's class at school(8 years old) who are probably 3rd or 4th generation Irish who do Irish Step Dancing classes every week. Are they more Irish than my daughter who prefers to do gymnastics instead? I don't think so, I've spoken to their parents who told me they have never even been to Ireland.

I can pretend and say that my kids are Irish but like it or not, my kids are American. I can show them what it means to be Irish but unless you emerse yourself into experiencing Irish life, then you are not Irish. And to do that, you have to live in Ireland. I don't think Gary Breen is any more Irish than Clinton Morrison just because he played Gaelie Football as a kid.

So I think if a player is eligible and wants to play for Ireland, then he should.

To be honest, I dont know what the definition of "an Irish life" is, is it anything like "the simple life"?! Either way, that doesn't stick at all.

Is being Irish, living in an area with Irish people? Is it earning the Euro?! Is it speaking to Poles everyday in the shop, going to the pub and drinking heineken?! What exactly is Irish life.....

I would put it simply a common feeling, belief, based on your experience, your immersion in something, your cultural background, tradition and experience makes you Irish. Its not quite as simple as that, but its definitely not as simple as living in Gort, playing soccer with brazilians, drinking foreign beer, and speaking to the local poles.

[Kingdom]

Everytime I read a thread on this topic I find my opinion changing with every second post. what i find myself agreeing on is that those born in Ireland have a different opinion of Irishness to those of 2nd and 3rd generation Ireland. How do I feel? Dunno really, but if I may, I'll give a small analogy that will probably end up with me siding with the other Irish - the g's.
I was born and schooled in Dublin. Both my parents are from Kerry. As are all of my family. I holidayed in Kerry every Summer up to when I started 3rd year. I never once identified with Dublin, or my area, as we didn't have friends (obviously I'm referring to my rents here), my family socialised in Kerry groups or had rellies visiting.

Thus when it came time to go to Gaelic games I always adorned the green and gold. I didn't sound kerry, I didn't have a Kerry club, but in no way did I regard myself as Dublin so that was that, and continued to be while I worked in Dublin. People in my local (which also happened to be a GAA halla) thought I was a wind up merchant, and now that I've been living in the country for a few years people just think I'm odd.

So to sum up the analogy, Irishness cannot simply be where you were born, or how you speak, its whats inside you, its how you were raised, you know it yourself, and don't let anyone else tell you what you are.

[FarBeag]

Everytime I read a thread on this topic I find my opinion changing with every second post. what i find myself agreeing on is http://foot.ie/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=890670that those born in Ireland have a different opinion of Irishness to those of 2nd and 3rd generation Ireland. How do I feel? Dunno really, but if I may, I'll give a small analogy that will probably end up with me siding with the other Irish - the g's.
I was born and schooled in Dublin. Both my parents are from Kerry. As are all of my family. I holidayed in Kerry every Summer up to when I started 3rd year. I never once identified with Dublin, or my area, as we didn't have friends (obviously I'm referring to my rents here), my family socialised in Kerry groups or had rellies visiting.

Thus when it came time to go to Gaelic games I always adorned the green and gold. I didn't sound kerry, I didn't have a Kerry club, but in no way did I regard myself as Dublin so that was that, and continued to be while I worked in Dublin. People in my local (which also happened to be a GAA halla) thought I was a wind up merchant, and now that I've been living in the country for a few years people just think I'm odd.

So to sum up the analogy, Irishness cannot simply be where you were born, or how you speak, its whats inside you, its how you were raised, you know it yourself, and don't let anyone else tell you what you are.

Excellent post.

[Kingdom]

I think Andy Townsend supported England during Euro '88 (?) but he went on to be captain of Ireland.

I don't know why people would complain about non-Irish born playing for Ireland considering some of our best ever victories came when the likes of Ray Houghton (England, Italy) and Jason McAteer (Holland) put the ball in the net.

People may want eleven players from across Ireland lining out, but the granny rule has served Ireland well.

That is a point that a lot of people would feel sore about I think, the idea of someone singing another anthem vehemently (something that would indicate to me someone who is 100% sure pf their identity) and turn cheek and declare for another country is wrong to me. And more to the point I don't mean kids either. We all know kids are impressionable. The likes of Townsend Matty Holland and Clinton weren't kids they were men, and to me anyway its a sore point.

[micls]

I think Andy Townsend supported England during Euro '88 (?) but he went on to be captain of Ireland.

I don't know why people would complain about non-Irish born playing for Ireland considering some of our best ever victories came when the likes of Ray Houghton (England, Italy) and Jason McAteer (Holland) put the ball in the net.

People may want eleven players from across Ireland lining out, but the granny rule has served Ireland well.

But this is where we disagree, I dont see winning.achieving as the main pointof international football. Certainly not 'at all costs'.

[boovidge]

That is a point that a lot of people would feel sore about I think, the idea of someone singing another anthem vehemently (something that would indicate to me someone who is 100% sure pf their identity) and turn cheek and declare for another country is wrong to me.

People can have more than one nationality. I dont sing god save the queen because im a republican but if there was an English anthem that didnt glorify imperialism or royalty then i would sing it as well as Amhrán na bhFiann.

It's obviously preferable if all the players had supprted Ireland as a kid but as long as theyre 100% commited to the green shirt once they're in it does it really matter?

[Stuttgart88]

I know that, my own father is a fan, which is why I took the underground out there once it just sounds ultra British to the uninitiated.

I actually live about 50 yards from the Queen's Park in QPR, although they play in Shepherd's Bush / White City about 2 miles south west.. The whole area is now known as Queen's Park, though strictly speaking it's estate agent-speak as on any old A to Z or train map it's West Kilburn, and the Irish presence in the area is very obvious. I'm told the club was founded in the local "rough" pub, The Falcon, though I'm not sure if this is true. I actually wonder if the "Rangers" refers to the fact that the club was founded by the original park rangers. Anyone know the origins?

[backstothewall]

I think the point about Belgium was not that Belgians don't like football, but that they don't like Belgium. Belgium almost ceased to exist last year becuase the people there have little identity with it. People in Belgium see themselves as being from Flanders or Walloon, not Belgium.

As for who is Irish, every case is different. Jason McAtter is as Irish as they come in my eyes. I don't know what he was like before Jack called him up, but like another scouser before him, John Aldridge, he embraced being Irish completely.

Listening to the likes of Andy Townsend or Mark Lawrenson makes me sick to my stomach that they took the place of someone, not neccessarily born in Ireland, but to whom it would have had the same meaning to pull on the green as it would do for me. McGeady vs Clinton Morrison is a perfect example of this

[tetsujin1979]

As for who is Irish, every case is different. Jason McAtter is as Irish as they come in my eyes. I don't know what he was like before Jack called him up, but like another scouser before him, John Aldridge, he embraced being Irish completely.

Listening to the likes of Andy Townsend or Mark Lawrenson makes me sick to my stomach that they took the place of someone, not neccessarily born in Ireland, but to whom it would have had the same meaning to pull on the green as it would do for me. McGeady vs Clinton Morrison is a perfect example of this

huh? Clinton has embraced being Irish as much as McAteer and Aldo before him. Why are you picking on him?

[danonion]

Mauro Camoranesi won the World Cup with Italy and said he's 100% Argentine. If he was on the right side of our midfield for the last few years he could say he was 100% martian and it wouldn't bother me.

[Deckydee]

I think the point about Belgium was not that Belgians don't like football, but that they don't like Belgium. Belgium almost ceased to exist last year becuase the people there have little identity with it. People in Belgium see themselves as being from Flanders or Walloon, not Belgium.

As for who is Irish, every case is different. Jason McAtter is as Irish as they come in my eyes. I don't know what he was like before Jack called him up, but like another scouser before him, John Aldridge, he embraced being Irish completely.

Listening to the likes of Andy Townsend or Mark Lawrenson makes me sick to my stomach that they took the place of someone, not neccessarily born in Ireland, but to whom it would have had the same meaning to pull on the green as it would do for me. McGeady vs Clinton Morrison is a perfect example of this

Excatly right about Belgium, it is a weird country indeed. No sense of national pride at all.

In regards to the quote about Townsend and Lawrenson, what do you mean there, it is not clear. Lawrenson makes me mad too when I hear him on the BBC going on about 'We this" and 'We that'

Is that the point you are making?

[Wolfie]

Listening to the likes of Andy Townsend or Mark Lawrenson makes me sick to my stomach that they took the place of someone, not neccessarily born in Ireland, but to whom it would have had the same meaning to pull on the green as it would do for me. McGeady vs Clinton Morrison is a perfect example of this

Townsend and Lawrenson let their performances on the pitch express what it meant to represent Ireland. Its more in what they did than what they said.

They produced some of the best performances ever seen in a green jersey and both have spoken about how proud they were to play for Ireland on various occasions.

There's no point in either of them affecting a phony Oirish accent, wearing only Aran sweaters and self consciously trying to falsly reinforce how their Irish blood line runs back to 356 AD when it clearly doesn't.

Lawrenson scored the crucial goal against Scotland away in 1987 that's generally considered our last away win of any significance. Townsend scored one of the penalties in Genoa (among some other notable goals) and I'd consider him one of the best leaders and captains the team has had.

Just look at Townsends performance AGAINST England at Wembley in 1991.

[RogerMilla]

huh? Clinton has embraced being Irish as much as McAteer and Aldo before him. Why are you picking on him?

backtowalsall , dont dis the clint !
he gives 1000% every game , more than can be said for fellas born and bred in the country.

The fact is we are a nation which has seen both sides of the migration process. I welcome our new assimilated poles and our 2/3g english , our dubs our six counties men and our culchies to pull on the jersey and support the Irish team, because thats what makes us what we are.