Irish Declaration

[livehead1]

I have an old friend who I went to school with. He was born in England with an Irish born father. All through school he was Irish as they come, however, I met up with him the other day and he was sporting a rather fetching England shirt, he's now aged 21. How would the criteria work for this particular chap!

[RogerMilla]

Now that said, if I did declare for Ireland, I'd be worried about an element of the support calling me a plastic paddy for having a Canadian accent and not knowing how to sing the anthem in Irish, and maybe it would be wrong for me to represent Ireland in this case.

fcuk the begrudgers irish fan, i really hope those muppets would not keep you away. ( oh but please learn the anthem ! )

[Deckydee]

So some people agree with my orginal post in that International football is not what is used to be.

Some got a number for Bardsley then?

[Drumcondra 69er]

I have an old friend who I went to school with. He was born in England with an Irish born father. All through school he was Irish as they come, however, I met up with him the other day and he was sporting a rather fetching England shirt, he's now aged 21. How would the criteria work for this particular chap!

The only criteria you'd need to know would be the administration of a swift kick to the goolies in that instance.....

You either follow one or the other, flip flopping is unacceptable! I generally go to the away games with 2nd generation lads who are as staunch as they come but I also know a few lads born in England of Irish parentage who follow England. That's their perogative but you can't chop and change!

[GavinZac]

Wind your neck in Gavin, some people living on the Island are far detached for the reality on the Island. Give it a rest and don't try and bring politics into sport, they don't mix.

National identity, the topic of this thread, is a political issue. They do mix - its called international football?

[endabob1]

I love the moral high-horse carry on that goes on in threads like this. Reducing nationality to a form of mathematics, maybe we should introduce a points system to determine who are allowed support and play for Ireland.
1 point for knowing the national anthem opening line & endy bit (2 bonus points for knowing the whole lot)
2 points for hating all things British (except Man Utd obviously because “jaysus shurr Keano made them great anyways”)
-1 point for not having been born and bred within the free state
-2 points for having a foreign accent –3 if it’s a particularly annoying loud American one or a Cheeky Cockney geezer one.

Etc…

[paul_oshea]

Irish people are Irish because they've been brought up amongst Irish people and in Irish culture.

You've been brought up in Canada with Canadian people in Canadian culture. Everything you've experienced about Ireland and the Irish (im making an assumption here because I'm actually speaking in general about 2nd gens) comes from just 2 people. If I had only met 2 Irish people in my life, no matter how 'Irish' they are or instrumental they've been in my life, I don't think I could consider myself Irish. To me, you're a Canadian whose parents are Irish. "Irish" is about more than heritage or birthplaces, its your way of life, your culture. Assuming culture can be passed genetically is a slippery slope to racism! I think assuming that you can garner an experience of a way of life or a culture from a minuscule subset of said culture is a fallacy a lot of 2nd gens make - and its very strange when you meet someone who has never been to Ireland and doesn't "get it" yet they loudly shout "oh hey I'm Irish!" across tables bars.

This isn't a put down, and I hope it doesn't come across that way, its just my opinion. Obviously we aren't going to share much common ground because we haven't experienced each other's situations. I'm not claiming to be "super irish!" either or anything, I'm probably the least patriotic/nationalist person im aware of, because I think its pointless trying to feel affinity with people you have very little in common with; As a Cork person, the culture I would have in common with a republican from armagh, or a D4-dweller, or a farmer in newtwopothouse is tenuous at best. Your own experience of "Irish Culture" would be even more narrow and select, and your links with any of these 'subcultures' that your parents arent from would be tenuous as far as to be negligible.

However, in broader terms, you're right, its a grey area with the on-set of globalisation and certainly not something as clear cut as we would like in our game of rules, lines and scores.

I feel sorry for ye zac, but more importantly I feel sorry for the fact, that more and more people are probably begining to think like you too.

[paul_oshea]

The only criteria you'd need to know would be the administration of a swift kick to the goolies in that instance.....

You either follow one or the other, flip flopping is unacceptable! I generally go to the away games with 2nd generation lads who are as staunch as they come but I also know a few lads born in England of Irish parentage who follow England. That's their perogative but you can't chop and change!

i just had that experience right now, with the lad sitting across from me at work, his parents are irish and he was born in manchester, proceeded to tell me his cousins are in the Garda. then I said ah "your what we call a plastic" and he goes, no I'm not, I'm English. I was born in Manchester how could I be Irish. He then told me of when he was playing hockey u21s ( I think he said for england but i didnt quite catch it ) and he got a call from Ireland asking him to play for Ireland He said no, "cos I'm English", but I think his surname is parker, so that explains a lot, plus his parents were dubs, prolly south dubs too So its not just the FAI. Its down to the parenting at the end of the day, I am 110% sure of that. I have seen it all over the shop, particularly here in London.

[NeilMcD]

I think when it comes to 2nd generation it really is a choice that they can make and it is largely to do with upbringing and there is not right or wrong way with this. I would not hold anything against your work mate for thinking he is English. .

[paul_oshea]

I think when it comes to 2nd generation it really is a choice that they can make and it is largely to do with upbringing and there is not right or wrong way with this. I would not hold anything against your work mate for thinking he is English. .

I'm not, its his haircut. Only joking, no its horses for courses but its down to your upbringing 100% and how your parents influence you ( everything falls into this statement, in terms of schooling etc, immersion ).

[youngirish]

He said no, "cos I'm English", but I think his surname is parker, so that explains a lot, plus his parents were dubs, prolly south dubs too

Most south Dubs are just English people who missed the last free boat home in 1922. Either that or rich 2g culchies.

[GavinZac]

I feel sorry for ye zac, but more importantly I feel sorry for the fact, that more and more people are probably begining to think like you too.

why do you feel sorry for me?

[youngirish]

why do you feel sorry for me?

Probably because you're from Cork.

[antrimgreen]

National identity, the topic of this thread, is a political issue. They do mix - its called international football?

You slated Americans for supporting something that was happening in Ireland 15 years ago as you put it, yet i bet you watched on TV when Bertie and the rest of the Dail rememebered the ten men executed in Mountjoy in 1921, these men fought and died for the same cause/belief as the men did through out Irish history.

Honestly you are best keeping sport out of politics, if you are Irish and want to play for the Green jersey for love and pride then you deserve to wear the shirt.

[GavinZac]

You slated Americans for supporting something that was happening in Ireland 15 years ago as you put it, yet i bet you watched on TV when Bertie and the rest of the Dail rememebered the ten men executed in Mountjoy in 1921, these men fought and died for the same cause/belief as the men did through out Irish history.

I didn't actually. Not much of a nationalist myself as I've already explained. I didn't "slate americans", I said (some, which is implied in any generalistation) misguided americans gave money and guns to a terrorist organisation, probably the same ones who today would bleat about al-qaeda or the like.

Honestly you are best keeping sport out of politics, if you are Irish and want to play for the Green jersey for love and pride then you deserve to wear the shirt.

Oh I agree... what we're disagreeing on is what constitutes "Irish".

[Deckydee]

i just had that experience right now, with the lad sitting across from me at work, his parents are irish and he was born in manchester, proceeded to tell me his cousins are in the Garda. then I said ah "your what we call a plastic" and he goes, no I'm not, I'm English. I was born in Manchester how could I be Irish. He then told me of when he was playing hockey u21s ( I think he said for england but i didnt quite catch it ) and he got a call from Ireland asking him to play for Ireland He said no, "cos I'm English", but I think his surname is parker, so that explains a lot, plus his parents were dubs, prolly south dubs too So its not just the FAI. Its down to the parenting at the end of the day, I am 110% sure of that. I have seen it all over the shop, particularly here in London.

I agree 100% on what I have made bold in the above statement.

I live in Belgium for about 7 years now and along with my girlfriend, I intend to have children someday in the future. I will make sure that this kid be it boy or girl would support QPR/Muster/Ireland and Republic of Ireland in the football. This is I guess is because I am normal and when I am watching these matches on the television, I would want them on my knee supporting them with me. That is the dream of all fathers I guess.

Now there is small bolder standing in my way and that bolder is called ‘the Belgians’. They are apparently a strange breed. It is has become apparent to me after all my years of experience living there that they are not exactly proud of their country. Most of the time they don’t even know when they are playing their qualifiers, whether if it is for the EC or WC. On one occasion last year no broadcaster bought the rights to one of their qualifying matches. In the end they found out that none of them had bought it and one of them bought the match just to save the embarrassment. Can you imagine that happening here?

My point is that (and this is what gets me) is that they cannot do things like the above and then suddenly get a burst of patriotism when it comes to my unborn child.

I have mentioned the fact that I intend to rear my kid/s Irish when they are born, I get some looks from them but I don’t care. It is beyond important to me that whatever offspring I have they are the same as me and follow who I follow!

I guess the whole point of this post is that I cannot understand why parents in other countries don’t have the same feelings as me. Imagine if they were, imagine all the players we would have to choose from then?

Me wonders what the problem is?

[GavinZac]

I guess the whole point of this post is that I cannot understand why parents in other countries don’t have the same feelings as me. Imagine if they were, imagine all the players we would have to choose from then?

Me wonders what the problem is?

I'd imagine its because, as a culture, we're rather insecure about our own national identity, having been products of Napoleonic nationalism within the last century. Compare that to the Belgians who would be at the far opposite end of the scale in terms of national fervor, it'd juxtapose.

I'd also imagine, to football fans, some of the raised eyebrows are for your rather odd form of patriotism involving Ireland, Munster and Queens Park Rangers.

[Deckydee]

http://qprreport.blogspot.com/2008/0...-scotland.html

One of my own players getting his point across. He will be waiting to get into the English with his patchy form.

[Deckydee]

I'd imagine its because, as a culture, we're rather insecure about our own national identity, having been products of Napoleonic nationalism within the last century. Compare that to the Belgians who would be at the far opposite end of the scale in terms of national fervor, it'd juxtapose.

I'd also imagine, to football fans, some of the raised eyebrows are for your rather odd form of patriotism involving Ireland, Munster and Queens Park Rangers.

Hi Gavin,

I have to pull you up on that one Im afraid. Indeed it may have the word 'Queen' and 'Rangers' in the name but I have been there many a time and I dont think you could find a club in South England with more irish connections. All the people I meet are 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation Irish and support Ireland in Rugby and the ROI in football. Not all of course

All the pubs in the vicinity are irish as well. I posted a list of them on an earlier thread.

Indeed the very reason that I support them is that my parents lived there for 9 years. My father was involved in the building of Shepards Bush hospital.

[Plastic Paddy]

I dont think you could find a club in South England with more irish connections. All the people I meet are 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation Irish and support Ireland in Rugby and the ROI in football. Not all of course

Correctimundo. And to think people question our claim to Irishness. Sometimes I think they don't deserve us.

All the pubs in the vicinity are irish as well. I posted a list of them on an earlier thread.

And most of them you mention are dumps of the first order...

Indeed the very reason that I support them is that my parents lived there for 9 years. My father was involved in the building of Shepards Bush hospital.

Where's that then? It would save me a journey to Hammersmith or Charing Cross whenever I end up in A&E!

PP