QuoteOriginally Posted by micls
Thats rather sensationalist
I'm not flag waving for mercenaries here, I'm just saying that in some instances the ends do justify the means
You show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser - Vince Lombardi
Thats rather sensationalist
You show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser - Vince Lombardi
Why?
Lets look past wanting to have an Irish team to support.
What is the purpose of international football?
For me, its a team of Irishmen playing a team of English/French/Spanish men etc. It's playing for pride in your country and testing the best of you against the best of others.
If national teams are scouting those who dont even consider themselves Irish/Scottish/Qutari then what is the point?
Im not saying right now. But if in 20 years the best 11 players that qualify for Ireland under the rules dont consider themselves Irish(same for other nationalities) then I certainly couldnt support that team as an Irish team. They are no different than a club team at that stage and Id see no point in international football
With you on this 1 micls, no point in having to beg a player to play because his granny is Irish, screw that, as said before you should be playing for your country out of pride, passion & love for the land that you class as home.
Superfrank you would play for the USA, i would rather stick forkes in my eye than represent a country that i did not class as my nation/home.
I think a lot of Irish born and bred fail to understand the complexities of national identity a lot of people face now in a world of increasing globalization, where immigration is commonplace in all of the western world.
I was born in Ireland, and moved to Canada at age 4. I was raised by Irish parents and consider myself Irish, but I was raised in Canada and this is my home. I am also Canadian.
I feel connections to both countries and would proudly represent either in international competition if I were good enough (Ireland would be my first choice though).
Now that said, if I did declare for Ireland, I'd be worried about an element of the support calling me a plastic paddy for having a Canadian accent and not knowing how to sing the anthem in Irish, and maybe it would be wrong for me to represent Ireland in this case.
A lot of you seem to think that people should have absolute dedication to one country without any love for any other country they have connections to at all.
Unfortunately the world is a lot more complicated than that, and it will increasingly become common for people to claim connections to many nationalities, and it will be interesting to see how this affects international football in the long term.
So, hypothetically, for those purests among you, would you want me to represent Ireland if I were good enough?
No, thats not the point Im making at all.I think a lot of Irish born and bred fail to understand the complexities of national identity a lot of people face now in a world of increasing globalization, where immigration is commonplace in all of the western world.
I was born in Ireland, and moved to Canada at age 4. I was raised by Irish parents and consider myself Irish, but I was raised in Canada and this is my home. I am also Canadian.
I feel connections to both countries and would proudly represent either in international competition if I were good enough (Ireland would be my first choice though
Now that said, if I did declare for Ireland, I'd be worried about an element of the support calling me a plastic paddy for having a Canadian accent and not knowing how to sing the anthem in Irish, and maybe it would be wrong for me to represent Ireland in this case.
A lot of you seem to think that people should have absolute dedication to one country without any love for any other country they have connections to at all.
Unfortunately the world is a lot more complicated than that, and it will increasingly become common for people to claim connections to many nationalities, and it will be interesting to see how this affects international football in the long term.
So, hypothetically, for those purests among you, would you want me to represent Ireland if I were good enough?
My only point was that I think people should consider themselves Irish. Thats not to say they have to consider themselves only Irish, but certainly have a strong will, passion for playing for Ireland.
If they are eligible and consider themselves Irish in this way then I dont have a problem at all.
]
Its those who dont even know they are Irish (like the Bardsley example) who were chasing just because they're half decent is what I have a problem with.
The challenge of playing at that stage. That's what I want. For me, international football has very little to do with national identity anymore.
I am very proud of being Irish. There's no doubting that and Ireland would definitely be my first choice but like I said I'd rather play for a team (club or nation) that actually wanted me.
When you see the amount of people switching nationalities in football these days, I feel it devalues the national identity aspect. Think of the great players that have switched nationality: Puskas, Di Stefano, Vieira, Desailly, Camoranesi, et al. For me, national footballing sides are there to display the best available players, like club sides but they simply have bigger support.
And in all honesty, I don't think all players do it for the pride of wearing the shirt. And I don't mean the obvious cases (Clinton Morrison). Don't international footballers get bonuses? What player that's truly patriotic will be paid to play for his country?
Extratime.ie
Yo te quiero, mi querida. Sin tus besos, yo soy nada.
Abri o portão de ouro, da maquina do tempo.
Mi mamá me hizo guapo, listo y antimadridista.
Good post and honest.
And this is why I think the future international football is very shaky.
As you said more and more players will play for the challenge of playing at that level, or to increase transfer value etc.
Again for me, this isnt the point of international football, so as time goes on it is getting more and more pointless to me and Im losing interest. Its becoming more and more like the club game, with as you mentioned above the money aspect.
If its not about national identity then whats the point?
And despite all this, Im not in any way a nationalist, I'm very far from it in general. I just think if its gonna be just another version of club football then there is no reason to have international football. And I think its a shame
Irish people are Irish because they've been brought up amongst Irish people and in Irish culture.
You've been brought up in Canada with Canadian people in Canadian culture. Everything you've experienced about Ireland and the Irish (im making an assumption here because I'm actually speaking in general about 2nd gens) comes from just 2 people. If I had only met 2 Irish people in my life, no matter how 'Irish' they are or instrumental they've been in my life, I don't think I could consider myself Irish. To me, you're a Canadian whose parents are Irish. "Irish" is about more than heritage or birthplaces, its your way of life, your culture. Assuming culture can be passed genetically is a slippery slope to racism! I think assuming that you can garner an experience of a way of life or a culture from a minuscule subset of said culture is a fallacy a lot of 2nd gens make - and its very strange when you meet someone who has never been to Ireland and doesn't "get it" yet they loudly shout "oh hey I'm Irish!" across tables bars.
This isn't a put down, and I hope it doesn't come across that way, its just my opinion. Obviously we aren't going to share much common ground because we haven't experienced each other's situations. I'm not claiming to be "super irish!" either or anything, I'm probably the least patriotic/nationalist person im aware of, because I think its pointless trying to feel affinity with people you have very little in common with; As a Cork person, the culture I would have in common with a republican from armagh, or a D4-dweller, or a farmer in newtwopothouse is tenuous at best. Your own experience of "Irish Culture" would be even more narrow and select, and your links with any of these 'subcultures' that your parents arent from would be tenuous as far as to be negligible.
However, in broader terms, you're right, its a grey area with the on-set of globalisation and certainly not something as clear cut as we would like in our game of rules, lines and scores.
Your Chairperson,
Gavin
Membership Advisory Board
"Ex Bardus , Vicis"
Well, if half of this forum can support big four English teams located in cities they've probably never resided in, I'm sure you won't begrudge me supporting the country of my birth in international competition.
thats a pretty blinkered approach to take towards such an issue GZ though i totally agree with where youre coming from in terms of the american guy in the bar who is "irish, man" but doesnt really know where it is or how it is he is irish...
irishfan86 is clearly irish - in much the same way as my kids will be irish despite the likelihood that they will be born and raised in Canada. Also, my wife who is Canadian born with Croatian parents and Croatian born sisters would slit my throat if i questioned her Croatian-ness (??). In my opinion she is Croatian and all you have to do is look how she was brought up and the pride of her parents in their country to know that her feelings are genuine... without wanting to speak for him, im sure IrishFan86 has been through something similar.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
Most kids had lullabies and nursery rhymes, I had "we are the boys in green, the best you've ever seen...."
There is no hard and fast rule in relation to this but I am prepared to go with the Brian Kerr one, do they qualify, are they good enough and do they want to play for us and nobody else this is where Aiden McGeady fell into.
In Trap we trust
I would prefer players with the following criteria to represent my country.
1)They are eligible
2)They grew up supporting Ireland.
Oh, believe me, I'd begrudge them a whole lot more.Well, if half of this forum can support big four English teams located in cities they've probably never resided in, I'm sure you won't begrudge me supporting the country of my birth in international competition.
And, at the risk of repeating myself, I was speaking in general terms. In general, despite what they believe, second gens are quite detached from the reality of Irish culture. For proof, look 15 years ago when the majority of Ireland was appalled by the ongoing IRA attacks, whilst they received their funding and support from "well meaning" Irish-Americans.
Your Chairperson,
Gavin
Membership Advisory Board
"Ex Bardus , Vicis"
I'd like those criteria too, but to be honest, I'll take anybody with even the slightest link to Ireland, who may never have even cared about the team or country before being approached by the FAI to play for Ireland.
I think it's possible that players who decide to play for us but don't really feel Irish at the time will come to realise what it's all about the longer they play for the team, and the more time they spend in Ireland. But then, if they don't come around to this viewpoint, I'm not too bothered either.
Under the criteria some people are favouring here, we'd have been missing quite a few players from our team during the "golden era" of the late 80's and early 90's.
Hurtful rejections shaped Houghton's early club and international career. West Ham let him go after only one game and u-18 Scotland manager Andy Roxburgh said he wasn't good enough for Scotland. Houghton bounced back with Oxford and starred for Ireland, as his father was born in Donegal.
Last edited by osarusan; 04/03/2008 at 12:27 AM.
Great post! I was born and live in Canada to two Irish parents and having grown up in Ireland myself during the Charlton years I'd give my left ball to play for Ireland. Even if I only came on as a meaningless last second sub in a friendly against Equador!
Wind your neck in Gavin, some people living on the Island are far detached for the reality on the Island. Give it a rest and don't try and bring politics into sport, they don't mix.
You could say the same thing about the minority of irishmen that supported the IRA at the time though. Just because a certain number of irish americans (more than likely not 2nd or 3rd gen anyway) supported the IRA doesn't reflect on the whole irish diaspora around the world and how "in touch" they are with Ireland.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks