Trapatonni and the Eircom League

[Lim till i die]

I thought his comment was dismissive of eircom League players who currently do have the ability to play at international level

There are NO players playing in the Eircom League who have the ability to make a contribution to the Republic of Ireland in the forseeable future.

If they had the ability to do this they wouldn't be playing in the Eircom League.

to what level do LOI players need to reach for him to deem them worthy of an international call up AND still play in this league.

Surely this is an issue for the league rather than the players

[GavinZac]

There are NO players playing in the Eircom League who have the ability to make a contribution to the Republic of Ireland in the forseeable future.

If they had the ability to do this they wouldn't be playing in the Eircom League.

Do you not realise that this is circular reasoning?

Secondly, if its not, what exactly are you basing that on? The graveyard?

[Lim till i die]

Do you not realise that this is circular reasoning?

Yep.

Unfortunately couldn't be ar$ed wording it better.

I'm sure anyone who wishes to try really hard will be able to glean my point from it though.

what exactly are you basing that on?

The fact that the standard of the Eircom League is for the most part gawd-awful??

The fact that even the bit that isn't is cheapened by having to play against the bit that is weak in and week out??

The fact that this good bit still isn't anywhere near good enough??







Flip your question around what would you base your opinion that their are Eircom League players who would make a big difference on??

[jebus]

If an Eircom League player moves to a higher level, i.e. the Championship, and suceeds then he deserves a call up because he would have proven himself in a decent league that has quite a few international players in it. Until that time a player can run rings around Bray, Derry, Sligo, Galway and the rest and still have reasonable doubts over whether they would cut it against better opposition.

There it is in a nutshell fellas

[GavinZac]

Flip your question around what would you base your opinion that their are Eircom League players who would make a big difference on??

Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade. One would hope that our international 'scouts' have a little more football knowledge about them in order to recognise talent than simplifying things down to 'he's EL, he must be rubbish' or 'hes at a championship club - must be a 7/10' - they certainly would have been making leaps of faith if they're calling up the likes of Terry Dixon if they're going on who they've performed against.

[passinginterest]

The way I see it a lot of people are looking for the league to run and it's only starting to walk.
The ambition for now must be to increase the number of Eircom League players in underage squads, particularly U19 and U21. In recent years there seems to be more home based players in the U21 squad at least a couple every time. We should be looking to increase this to 5 or 6 and eventually to about 50% (distant future). This will be evidence that the league is succeeding in keeping talented players at home for longer.

Eventually this may lead a talented 21 year old playing in the league to justify a call up to the senior national side, while his Irish owners hold out for the million euro plus transfer fee required.

[jebus]

Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade.

Do you even believe that yourself? You think a scout watching a player running rings around a 16st centre back who smokes should be recognised as much as a player of similiar ability running rings around a professional defender?

[GavinZac]

Do you even believe that yourself? You think a scout watching a player running rings around a 16st smoking centre back should be recognised as much as a player of similiar ability running rings around a professional defender?

I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.

Why did you cut out the rest of the post?

[Lim till i die]

Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade.

You honestly don't think the standard of the opposition should have any bearing??

I remember a lad playing for Hill Celtic in Division 4B in town.

Scored 55 goals in 20-something games.

Should he be called up??

For someone who gives out (misguidedly mind) about simplicity later on in the same post, that point is ridiculously simplistic

One would hope that our international 'scouts' have a little more football knowledge about them in order to recognise talent than simplifying things down to 'he's EL, he must be rubbish' or 'hes at a championship club - must be a 7/10'

What waffle is this??

One would hope British scouts have a little more football knowledge then to allow International talent to rot in the Eircom League.

[bigmac]

I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.

Yes, but while a good player against Belgrade will be a good player against Ballinanty, the reverse may not be true. Regardless of what we may wish to be the case, moving from EL to Championship is a step up in difficulty and not every good EL player will be capable of making that step.

However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.

[jebus]

I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.

Why did you cut out the rest of the post?

Cause that's the part I was dealing with

and your point about a good player being a good player is wrong by the way. Ever heard Ferguson or Wenger talk about seeing some players with promise, but having to make a judgement decision based on who they have played against and how they have done? Both, and probably every other manager worth his salt has gone for one player over another based on how they have done against decent competition. Hence Clinton Morrison deserves a call up more than Jason Byrne, Curtis Davies doesn't sign for Arsenal whilst at West Brom after Wenger decides 10m is too much for a player who has only played Championship football and Gamble is left on the shelf at Cork.

That's me out of this thread, your point is non-sensical and I'm not getting drawn into another one of your bored afternoons on the internet

[Lim till i die]

However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.

I don't think anyone would argue that that isn't wrong

[GavinZac]

You honestly don't think the standard of the opposition should have any bearing??
For someone who gives out (misguidedly mind) about simplicity later on in the same post, that point is ridiculously simplistic

Of course I do. I don't think I ever said it shouldn't. However, it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all, because the alternative is discarding our national league as simply not viable in terms of players. When should that attitude change? Cant we just do this right before then?

One would hope British scouts have a little more football knowledge then to allow International talent to rot in the Eircom League.

They aren't, and if Joe Gamble's contract isnt extended soon, they wont.

[Lim till i die]

Of course I do. I don't think I ever said it shouldn't. However, it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all,.

It should be a pretty large wedge I'm pretty sure anyone with the most basic knowledge of football would agree!!

because the alternative is discarding our national league as simply not viable in terms of players

National League not viable in terms of players??

WTF??

More waffle I'm afraid Gav.

Unless of course you're talking about international players. In which case our national league isn't viable. Obviously

[GavinZac]

It should be a pretty large wedge I'm pretty sure anyone with the most basic knowledge of football would agree!!

Thats both of us covered so

Unless of course you're talking about international players.

well, obviously

In which case our national league isn't viable. Obviously

for the most part, and I'm guessing its subjective. keep going though, answer the rest; When would it qualify as viable? Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point? If not, how should they be judged?

[passinginterest]

When would it qualify as viable? Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point? If not, how should they be judged?

I think I sort of answered that a few posts back. It may have got lost in yer little argument.

To be viable the league needs to be providing a substantial input to teams at U19 and U21 levels. Players need to continue to impress in B squads and the U23 squad needs to prove a team made up of home based players can be competitive internationally.

I'm on the no player is good enough at the moment side of the fence. I don't think this has to always be the case, but, I do think it's more likely to be a young player coming trough the ranks, before a big move abroad that deserves a chance in the senior squad, rather than an older player returning from cross channel.

[GavinZac]

I think I sort of answered that a few posts back. It may have got lost in yer little argument.

To be viable the league needs to be providing a substantial input to teams at U19 and U21 levels. Players need to continue to impress in B squads and the U23 squad needs to prove a team made up of home based players can be competitive internationally.

I'm on the no player is good enough at the moment side of the fence. I don't think this has to always be the case, but, I do think it's more likely to be a young player coming trough the ranks, before a big move abroad that deserves a chance in the senior squad, rather than an older player returning from cross channel.

I'd agree with that, I'm not contending that the ELOI is awash with international footballers. Indeed, an awful lot, even in the premier, are rubbish. However, I do think theres at least one diamond amongst the mud - you can probably guess who by now, and more importantly, I think its entirely counter productive to simply dismiss the ELOI and its players. For the future of football on this island, we cannot expect England to train and develop all of our players as they bring in more and more foreigners, so any motivation in trying to keep kids at home would be good. For the sake of some expense, is respecting our league with even 1 professional scout too much to ask?

[CuanaD]

However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.

But WHY?
Look at Doyle - it only took Reading 6 weeks to turn a decent eL player into a top class player worthy of his 1st international cap - shows the quality of coach (and scout) they have over there


(now, can anyone tell me, was that irony or scarcasm?)

[Lim till i die]

keep going though, answer the rest; When would it qualify as viable?

Years from now when at least eight of the top ten clubs in the country are operating at the level of the Championship in England*

At the moment the number of clubs doing this is zero.

*Not that that is a great standard, but it will have to do.

Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point?

For anything other than "B" Internationals and underage level then yes IMHO.

If not, how should they be judged?

Frankly, if Joe Gamble (who I assume is your diamond) is serious about wanting to represent his country at the highest level then he should move to England.

For the future of football on this island, we cannot expect England to train and develop all of our players as they bring in more and more foreigners, so any motivation in trying to keep kids at home would be good.

Irish clubs bringing through top class youth is crucial for what you want alright.

But that too is years down the line.

For the sake of some expense, is respecting our league with even 1 professional scout too much to ask?

Would be nothing other than tokenism.

[amaccann]

9 page threads tend to make me avoid them like the plague, so dunno if anyone has made this point; but as I see it, there's a possibility, however slim, that Trap & Tardelli will approach the LoI question with fresh, relatively unbiased eyes in assessing its best players. I suspect past managers, some more than others, would have come from the biased, British sensibilities that lower league teams would be automatically superior to the best Irish ones. Perhaps Tardelli will view it with a fairer eye (although the answer may still be the same of course).

One things for sure; someone, some journalist, at some point, is going to ask the direct question "but what about the LoI Trap?" and then the firm answer will be got.