Chicken or egg?Originally Posted by Bald Student
Didn't notice that myself. I have however followed Jackmans career through Connaught, Clontarf and now Leinster he can't throw for toffee.
Whichever comes as a result of the French staying on the ground to defend against a maul forming.
Jackman's throwing isn't great but it's also not as bad as is being made out. We lost one lineout as a result of a bad throw to Heaslip and (I think) 3 more where the throw was OK but the timing was bad between the thrower and jumper, allowing the French to jump in front and rob the throw.
Last edited by Bald Student; 12/02/2008 at 3:32 PM.
...or realising they have less chance of picking it off as the throw is better.
FWIW our mauls actually improved towards the end of the game (thus again highlighting the futility of defending lineouts on the ground).
It's a long time since I took part in a lineout but I'm absolutely certain that six men on the ground are better placed to defend a maul than 2 men in the air and 4 men lifting them. At the end of the game Ireland was within 8 and then 5 points of France and the French decided to defend their line rather than trying to steal Irish possession. It's a different calculation of risks for different parts of the game.
I'm not saying this to defend Jackman's throwing but to point out that the situation is more complicated than a simple post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Its fairly well known that there is no way to legally defend a properly constituted maul in the current game and thats why the new IRB rules being applied in the Super 14s allow collapsing the maul.
The only way to stop a maul is by not letting in form, which in a lineout situation involves either getting a man on the deck or tackling the jumper immediately as he lands and before the required numbers are bound in so that a maul is formed.
You can still do this and contest the lineout.
Another one of O'Donovan's wonderful world cup ideas....
I don't agree with everything you have to say about a maul but I'll agree that it's possible to stop one being formed with jumpers in the air but you're much more likely to be successful doing this without anyone jumping since you will have more players available to do it. The French were, correctly, playing a risk minimisation strategy at this point.
That's getting a little away from the topic we were discussing though. We can debate why the French didn't challenge the Irish lineout near the end of the game but the fact that they didn't is, in my mind, more important that the two Irish substitutions that happened around the same time.
None of that should be interpreted to mean that I think Jackman is a good thrower, rather that I don't think that he was the sole cause of our difficulties earlier in the game.
There was all kinds of flapping going on in the lineouts before he made the throws which we lost. It's the pack leader's call where to throw the ball. After those he went back to O'Callaghan which we won easily. Bad decision making and not Jackman's fault.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
Throwing to the front is not really a viable long-term solution if you want to secure good attacking ball. Front ball narrows the angle of attack by allowing the defending side to cramp you in on the blind side which makes getting the ball to the backs much more difficult.
Neither is cutting the line short a particularly attractive option either as it allows the remaining forwards to pack the defensive line.
Why would we want to give the ball to our backs late on on Saturday? We murdered the French up front, and their main lineout threat was Bonnaire, who was jumping at the tail. If we secured our ball at the front and mauled we would have got more penalties, possibly 2 tries and caused the French more headaches.
I take on board your points and agree with them when the throw-in is in midfield because you need more options there, but 5 metres out, against a pack that we're destroying...please !!
Tommy Bowe to start, replaces Murphy.
http://www.rugby.ie/news/story/?jp=mheysnojsngb&d=new
Should be a comfortable win for us this weekend.... (if we avoid giving away penalties in kickable positions)
Good move bringing Bowe in. Bad move getting rid of Murphy. I kow he was pretty poor against the French (as he always seems to be!) but he seems to be playing for Ireland with the axe constantly hovering over him. i.e play badly in one game and you're out. Whereas Dempsey seems to be guaranteed his place no matter what.
Now i have nothing against Dempsey but surely its time to give the jersey to Murphy (or even Kearney/Fitzgerald!) and say to him "right you've got x number of games to prove yourself for us" instead of the "play well or you're out" attitude that O'Sullivan seems to have with Murphy.
"Well I think they'll be a little disappointed with that" - Matt Holland on TV3 after 5-2 drubbing by Cyprus
At last Eddie realises the importance of form and brings in Ireland's best back this season (admittedly not a huge group of contenders for that honour) as well as rewarding Mick O'Driscoll for some fine form.
Re Murphy, he does seems to be the one that Eddie picks on (I think he's had more than enough chances over the years and lets us down more often than not) but it would be harsh on Dempsey to get rid of him for Murphy, as at least he can defend solidly. Personally I'd look to the future and play Fitzgerald at 15 and inject some pace into the line.
Last chance Saloon for Jackman, with Flannery hopefully coming back for the Wales game. Despite what people have posted earlier, Jackman WAS responsible for 3 out of 5 lineout losses against France by underthrowing the ball (courtesy of analysis by Franno in the Turbine).
Dempsey without fail is a solid 7 out of 10 every game for Ireland man. Murphy is too unreliable and is prone to errors and missing tackles. I'd go for the steady option every time at 15.
So can we finally put an end to Geordan Murphy's international?
No - Dempsey is struggling with a hip injury! He has more lives than a cat!
Just been told that Dempsey won't make it and Geordan Murphy is in at full-back. Should be confirmed later.
Surely last chance saloon for him now?
Surely he can't be dropped after that performance? Wouldn't be surprised though.
Bowe and O'Gara had excellent games I thought. BOD was quiet again apart from his pass for the second try.
Jackman had a poor throwing game again but Best didn't do too great either when he came on. I'd still prefer Jackman ahead of Best because of his play in the loose. Hopefully Flannery will be fit for the Wales game though.
Good to see O'Connell back, should see his start against Wales hopefully.
England win in Paris- things are after getting very interesting. We'll probably miss out by points difference as usual though.
Question: why do Irish players when they are standing on the edge of a ruck put one hand in the air? I watched the Wales/Italy and France/England games and none of their players do it.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
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