AIL Update

[sullanefc]

1. Ultimately, it will lead to games between the bottom teams from each League, which will often be the "smallest" teams (support, finances, facilities etc) having to play each other twice a season. And if these clubs can't make it pay when playing locally, how much worse would it be for e.g. Institute or Armagh to have to travel to Waterford or Bray or Cobh etc?

No matter what league you look at you are going to have small teams at the bottom, scrapping infront of diminished crowds.

The eL is currently reducing to 10 teams to eradicate the small fish. TBH I think that this is a mistake as it destablises (sp?) a team around the 8th, 9th & 10th spots who may be poor one season but could crack on the next instead of relegating them.

Now this is not a dig to the IL, but I honetly think that our small clubs are bigger than your small clubs. So instead of 2 leagues of 10, would an 8 team IL and 12 team eL be more accteptable? You would have the same number of games, but the uneven distribution of clubs might upset the IFA. Unless the likes of Derry and Finn Harps etc were to play in the IL section.

2. Under this scheme, the new money (sponsors, broadcasters etc) would have to be split between 20 teams, rather than the dozen or so(?) currently envisaged.

Yes I agree that the bigger split of money is a problem, but I also think that a 30 game season is too short.

P.S. Don't quite understand why the Nth and Sth (domestic) champions should play a final to determine the A-I champions. Surely the team which finished top of the League after 38 (or 30) games will be the best team on the island?

Because you would have 2 separate league tables of 10. Not one league table of 20. The top team of each league would be the minor champs and CL entries, but the winner of the final match between these two teams would be the overall champion.

e.g. Last year, Linfield would be IL champs, Drogs would be eL champs and the winners play off for the overall title.

[CMcC]

Hello all.

First post on the forum.

Was interested reading the views on the AIL.
I am in favour as a fan. It would be great seeing my side play the best from the North on a regular basis over a long hard season. Hopefully more excitment and something different.
But I am concerned that some people may think its a miracle cure for the ills of the game on this island. The bottom line for me is that I dont think it will increase gates or increase games sufficiently.

The proposals have a lot of positives and therefore I believe they should be supported. Standards may rise on the pitch with a more competitive league. Off the pitch may improve too with sponsorship money and prize money increasing. Hopefully the more progressive better clubs will pump some of that into facilities also.
My pessimism stems from knowing the 'great' irish sporting public.
(Not including our Northern cousins here - not from there or living there so cant comment on that situation)

These are the people who give the biggest roar of the night in Croker last week v Brazil when a Man Utd player comes on as a sub late in the game........for the opposition.

These are the people who go to Ireland games wearing Celtic shirts or Rugby merchandise.

These are the great sporting public who boo'd Jaap Stam in Lansdown beause he had the nerve to have a public falling out with Alex Ferguson.

These same people bought season tickers for Sunderland in the summer !

Start mexican waves when Ireland are losing matches

Boo Rangers (and ex Rangers) players playing against Ireland !!

I mean this is what you are up against.

The great Irish Sporting Public are event junkies. They want to be there for the big day out (GAA League vs Championship / Shels v Deportivo).
If its nicely packaged and new - shiny and sparkly they will love it but dont expect continued support thats just too damn hard. I mean Arsenal v Liverpool is on the box lads - lets have a few pints.
The fact is that too many Irish people have their teams already and most are not in Ireland ! They spend their hand earned on the shirts, the air fairs, the inflated ticket prices and there isnt enough left to enable them to watch domestic football - even if they want to and thats the crux.

We have to accept the vast majority of football fans here just dont care about domestic football and certainly dont rate it. I just fear that the marketing spend will not be enough to win them over to a new sparkly shiny AIL when they already have the same sparkly shiny glitz on Sky and Setanta.

Lets face it, its far to cold sitting in Belfield watching a dour 0-0 when you could be sitting in the pub watching Sunderland and Derby !!!

I hope I'm wrong because the AIL is maybe our last shot and I do believe the product will be an improved one if its done right but I just dont trust the Great Irish Public. They never let me down.

[EalingGreen]

No matter what league you look at you are going to have small teams at the bottom, scrapping infront of diminished crowds.

Aye, but the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th "biggest" teams in Ireland are going to be so far adrift of the top half dozen teams as to be utterly uncompetitive i.e. like having four Derby Countys in the English Prem, as opposed to one. Remember that a leading rationale behind this new venture is that the teams all be full-time professional. Personally, I can't see Ireland supporting 16 f-t teams, never mind 20; if there is to be any hope, it will be because the money behind this League won't be spread too thinly.

Now this is not a dig to the IL, but I honetly think that our small clubs are bigger than your small clubs. So instead of 2 leagues of 10, would an 8 team IL and 12 team eL be more accteptable? You would have the same number of games, but the uneven distribution of clubs might upset the IFA. Unless the likes of Derry and Finn Harps etc were to play in the IL section.

No, you're quite correct about the present inequality between the two Leagues, though I would point out that it wasn't always so. (Up until 25 years ago, the IL was arguably stronger than the LOI, whether assessed by playing standards, crowds, finances, stadia or overall stability. So these things can change)

Your 8 and 12 split might work, though I still doubt that the Eircom could support 12 f-t professional clubs - esp. if 1 or 2 is relegated each year and so needs replacing.
As for including Derry and Finn Harps in the "Northern League", even if the two clubs themselves agreed (little or no chance, I'd have thought), it would compromise the separate identity of the two National Associations, which your scheme so cleverly preserves otherwise.

Yes I agree that the bigger split of money is a problem, but I also think that a 30 game season is too short.

Remember that with a 30 game season, each game will be more likely to "count" at one end of the table or another (i.e. fewer meaningless mid-table nothing-to-play-for games). On the other hand, the extra dates could be used for a knock-out A-I Cup (to replace the Setanta) and even a winter-break in January.

In any case, the current breakaway clubs will be hard enough to persuade for the cake to be divided 16 ways, never mind 20. And it still comes back to Ireland being unable to support 20 f-t clubs, no matter how arranged (imo)

Because you would have 2 separate league tables of 10. Not one league table of 20. The top team of each league would be the minor champs and CL entries, but the winner of the final match between these two teams would be the overall champion.

e.g. Last year, Linfield would be IL champs, Drogs would be eL champs and the winners play off for the overall title.

I see what you're saying, but surely the best idea would be effectively to have 20/16 clubs playing in one League, but split into two stages. That is, the first half (up to Xmas?) on a regional basis, with each region deciding its own Champion, with European places. Then a winter break. Then the two regions re-constituted to merge, so that at the end of the 38/30 games, whoever is top is the best team in the island.
Think of it as playing the other 19/15 teams on a home and away basis to find the best team, it's just that the first 19/15 games are against nearby teams, with the remaining 19/15 games against teams further away.
This way, the first half of the season offers the incentive of European football and the second half offers the financial incentive, according to where you finish overall in the League (plus the bragging rights!)

[seanfhear]

i think ail league could work particularly if linfield/glentoran/cliftonville were amongst the pacesetters in the early years which i think certainly linfield with some investment could do.is there much appetite for investing in nothern irish clubs

[sullanefc]

Aye, but the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th "biggest" teams in Ireland are going to be so far adrift of the top half dozen teams as to be utterly uncompetitive i.e. like having four Derby Countys in the English Prem, as opposed to one. Remember that a leading rationale behind this new venture is that the teams all be full-time professional. Personally, I can't see Ireland supporting 16 f-t teams, never mind 20; if there is to be any hope, it will be because the money behind this League won't be spread too thinly.



No, you're quite correct about the present inequality between the two Leagues, though I would point out that it wasn't always so. (Up until 25 years ago, the IL was arguably stronger than the LOI, whether assessed by playing standards, crowds, finances, stadia or overall stability. So these things can change)

Your 8 and 12 split might work, though I still doubt that the Eircom could support 12 f-t professional clubs - esp. if 1 or 2 is relegated each year and so needs replacing.
As for including Derry and Finn Harps in the "Northern League", even if the two clubs themselves agreed (little or no chance, I'd have thought), it would compromise the separate identity of the two National Associations, which your scheme so cleverly preserves otherwise.



Remember that with a 30 game season, each game will be more likely to "count" at one end of the table or another (i.e. fewer meaningless mid-table nothing-to-play-for games). On the other hand, the extra dates could be used for a knock-out A-I Cup (to replace the Setanta) and even a winter-break in January.

In any case, the current breakaway clubs will be hard enough to persuade for the cake to be divided 16 ways, never mind 20. And it still comes back to Ireland being unable to support 20 f-t clubs, no matter how arranged (imo)



I see what you're saying, but surely the best idea would be effectively to have 20/16 clubs playing in one League, but split into two stages. That is, the first half (up to Xmas?) on a regional basis, with each region deciding its own Champion, with European places. Then a winter break. Then the two regions re-constituted to merge, so that at the end of the 38/30 games, whoever is top is the best team in the island.
Think of it as playing the other 19/15 teams on a home and away basis to find the best team, it's just that the first 19/15 games are against nearby teams, with the remaining 19/15 games against teams further away.
This way, the first half of the season offers the incentive of European football and the second half offers the financial incentive, according to where you finish overall in the League (plus the bragging rights!)

All excellent points EG and hard to argue against. Personally I wouldn't be in favour of the last one though. I would prefer a mix up of the fixtures rather than say, my team Cork City, playing all the eL clubs first and then playing all the northern clubs. But that is my own preference.

[MariborKev]

http://www.allirelandpremierleague.com/index.html

New website for the proposal, not much there at the minute.

[kingdomkerry]

web site is fairly limited all right.

Dont think there will be an AIL until 2012. The FAI will want to implement their 5 year plan and wont support an AIL until then and lets face it. It will never happen without the support of the FAI and IFA.

2012 is an ideal time anyway as it will give clubs the chance to build and imporve stadia, improve standards further and incerease attendances. If they can do this an AIL will only allow for further improvements.

[micls]

HOTSHOT Gary Hamilton has let the all-Ireland league cat out of the bag.
In today's Sunday Life he revealed more details of the project driven by Jim Roddy.
The Glens top striker unveiled details of a secret meeting former Derry City chief Roddy held with Glentoran and Linfield players this week.
Michael Halliday, Elliot Morris, Daryl Fordyce joined up with Peter Thompson, Kris Lindsay, Jamie Mulgrew and Jim Ervin to discuss the move.
Hamilton revealed that the proposed league would be run independently from the two governing bodies on the island.
However, it is proposed that the Carnegie and Eircom premier leagues would act as feeders to the new competition.
Television and commercial sponsors are said to be keen to back the full-time set-up with one live match per week being screened.
An apprenticeship scheme for under 19s would also be part of the deal.
Clubs north and south of the border have already been consulted as has the Eircom league's players' union.
Hamilton, who backed the proposals wholeheartedly, claims the ten-team league could be ready to start as early as August 2009.

[Mr A]

Interesting that the league would start off with only ten teams before expanding to 12.

The All Ireland Premier League will create and manage a competitive and commercially viable league that will serve the interests of the clubs, players and fans in Ireland.

Laughed when I read that. They may portray it as being for the good of football all they want, and it may bring some good I admit, but this is about making money first, second and third.

[passerrby]

Hamilton, who backed the proposals wholeheartedly, claims the ten-team league could be ready to start as early as August 2009.

ops ..does that mean that this years promotion battle is no longer relevent.
I can see dundalk winning the league and not getting a golden ticket to go to the jimmy wonka league ..now that would be wrong.

[micls]

ops ..does that mean that this years promotion battle is no longer relevent.
I can see dundalk winning the league and not getting a golden ticket to go to the jimmy wonka league ..now that would be wrong.

In a really hilarious way

[EalingGreen]

HOTSHOT Gary Hamilton has let the all-Ireland league cat out of the bag.
In today's Sunday Life he revealed more details of the project driven by Jim Roddy.
The Glens top striker unveiled details of a secret meeting former Derry City chief Roddy held with Glentoran and Linfield players this week.
Michael Halliday, Elliot Morris, Daryl Fordyce joined up with Peter Thompson, Kris Lindsay, Jamie Mulgrew and Jim Ervin to discuss the move.

And since when did Administrators or Executives ever give a stuff about the interests of mere players? Only when they needed them on their side when it comes to doing battle with other Administrators and Execs, perhaps?
"Right, boys, there'll be plenty of money in it for yis - especially if we keep it down to just 10 teams..."

Hamilton revealed that the proposed league would be run independently from the two governing bodies on the island.

Oh it will, will it? I imagine the IFA and FAI might have something to say about that, never mind UEFA and FIFA. Perhaps the former could discuss it with the latter when Michel Platini comes to Belfast at the end of this month (to present Healy with his UEFA Trophy at the Georgia friendly). Iirc, this is Platini's 3rd visit to the IFA in Belfast since being voted into the top job at UEFA. By all the Associations, inc. the IFA (and FAI). I wonder whether Platini feels similarly obliged/grateful towards the backers of this proposed trans-Association League? Doubt it, somehow...

However, it is proposed that the Carnegie and Eircom premier leagues would act as feeders to the new competition.

So the new competition's backers don't want the IFA and FAI to have anything to do with their new competition, but do want their co-operation when it comes to Promotion and Relegation. That's very big of them. Unless, of course, they are secretly hoping that the IFA and FAI will tell them to get stuffed, in which case they can drop the idea of Prom & Rel and blame the Associations/Leagues for not co-operating.
Or could they be so Machiavellian? Surely not...

[A face]

So the new competition's backers don't want the IFA and FAI to have anything to do with their new competition, but do want their co-operation when it comes to Promotion and Relegation. That's very big of them. Unless, of course, they are secretly hoping that the IFA and FAI will tell them to get stuffed, in which case they can drop the idea of Prom & Rel and blame the Associations/Leagues for not co-operating.
Or could they be so Machiavellian? Surely not...

Or would it start with a 10 team league, with the winners of eL and IL being invited to join the AIL, making 12 and the next year the same 14, and the next year 16 or 8 & 8, and then 18 or 10 & 8, and then 20 or 10 & 10 ...... pretty soon there'd be no clubs left to promote from the eL or IL

[Student Mullet]

Did they say whether the champions' league place would go to the first division winner or the highest ranked premier club not invited?

[EalingGreen]

Did they say whether the champions' league place would go to the first division winner or the highest ranked premier club not invited?

If it's not sanctioned in some way by the IFA and FAI, you can pretty much guarantee that the new League and its member clubs will NOT be allowed entry into Europe (CL, UEFA Cup or even Inter-Toto), since UEFA takes its cue directly from the National Associations which make up its own Membership.

If you look at the only two (vaguely) relevant precedents - The Royal and Baltic Leagues - these do not qualify winners for European places, even though their formats were acceptable to the domestic Associations and UEFA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_League

P.S. I note that the Royal League failed to take place this season, even though it combined the best clubs of three countries with a much bigger/wealthier population than Ireland and attracted potentially much bigger and more prestigious TV and sponsor interest etc. And the league had "bigger" clubs than Ireland can offer, as well. One of the reasons it has struggled is because it is played during the Scandinavian winter - afaik this was dictated by UEFA and the Nat.Associations, so as not to compromise or clash with the existing domestic Leagues, which continue to operate. This is something the backers of this new venture might do well to bear in mind before they start announcing ambitious plans for what they intend to do with football on this island...

[GavinZac]

If it's not sanctioned in some way by the IFA and FAI, you can pretty much guarantee that the new League and its member clubs will NOT be allowed entry into Europe (CL, UEFA Cup or even Inter-Toto), since UEFA takes its cue directly from the National Associations which make up its own Membership.

If you look at the only two (vaguely) relevant precedents - The Royal and Baltic Leagues - these do not qualify winners for European places, even though their formats were acceptable to the domestic Associations and UEFA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_League
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_League

P.S. I note that the Royal League failed to take place this season, even though it combined the best clubs of three countries with a much bigger/wealthier population than Ireland and attracted potentially much bigger and more prestigious TV and sponsor interest etc. And the league had "bigger" clubs than Ireland can offer, as well. One of the reasons it has struggled is because it is played during the Scandinavian winter - afaik this was dictated by UEFA and the Nat.Associations, so as not to compromise or clash with the existing domestic Leagues, which continue to operate. This is something the backers of this new venture might do well to bear in mind before they start announcing ambitious plans for what they intend to do with football on this island...

Those competitions would have been "precidents" for the setanta cup, not a 'national' league.

[Bomb Landsdowne]

Hamilton, who backed the proposals wholeheartedly, claims the ten-team league could be ready to start as early as August 2009.[/QUOTE]

So are we looking at a return to winter football??

[EalingGreen]

Those competitions would have been "precidents" for the setanta cup, not a 'national' league.

My point is that these competitions will have been framed the way they were at least in part because UEFA is dead set against anything which detracts from domestic Leagues, esp if of a transnational nature. In other words, that is why there are no real direct precedents.

(Besides, I did say they were only "vaguely relevant")

[dcfcsteve]

In any case, the current breakaway clubs will be hard enough to persuade for the cake to be divided 16 ways, never mind 20. And it still comes back to Ireland being unable to support 20 f-t clubs, no matter how arranged (imo)

The AIL plan is for 10 professional clubs initially, with another 2 added 3 years later. For the whole island, that strikes me as a very feasible number.

[paudie]

P.S. I note that the Royal League failed to take place this season, even though it combined the best clubs of three countries with a much bigger/wealthier population than Ireland and attracted potentially much bigger and more prestigious TV and sponsor interest etc. And the league had "bigger" clubs than Ireland can offer, as well. One of the reasons it has struggled is because it is played during the Scandinavian winter - afaik this was dictated by UEFA and the Nat.Associations, so as not to compromise or clash with the existing domestic Leagues, which continue to operate. This is something the backers of this new venture might do well to bear in mind before they start announcing ambitious plans for what they intend to do with football on this island...

Yeah. They'd better remember not to play any AIL games in Scandinavia during the winter or the whole thing is doomed