Fury as most civil servants awarded zero pay increases

**Ringo** · 11/01/2008, 6:46 AM

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1262843.html

The benchmarking report said most public servants are well paid compared with their private-sector counterparts and therefore do not qualify for benchmarking awards.

None of the unions had a problem when the benchmarking body gave out huge increases the last, now their up in arms. Most of us in the private sector don�t have the luxury of going on strike, for better pay. No one would care.

**Angus** · 11/01/2008, 7:39 AM

Couple of observations - the civils ervice is the biggest organisation in the country and as any of us who work for big companies knows, they can be infuriating.

Organisational politics, nobody wanting to take responsibility, incoherent or absent strategies - when you add that to the fact that poltiicans are calling the shots over funding, I would hate to work in the public service.

So, credit to the people there who do a good job. The issue is what to do with those people ion the public service who have no interest in doing a good job.

However, it is impossible to compare public with private sectors because of risk - the risk we take by working in the private sector has to be rewarded - that risk is in relative insecurity of employment, the possibility of termination, liquidation etc.

I am not tyring to suggest that the gap has been right (in fact, I think, despite the cost to the exchequer, recent public services rises have appropriately narrowed the gap) but I am saying that there should be a gap.

**Ringo** · 11/01/2008, 7:51 AM

The review body says its taking into account the pension, job security etc in its calculations.

**pete** · 11/01/2008, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Ringo

The review body says its taking into account the pension, job security etc in its calculations.

I don't think pensions difference was taken into account previously.

I think I would not be happy with 0.3% increase but maybe in the public sector more opportunities for promotion to move up through pay scales. In the private sector this may not be possible in smaller companies. Hopefully the best performing public sector people get rewarded with promotions.

2008 is going to be hardest time for the private sector in for probably 5 years & redundancies will increase.

Ultimately if benchmarking process was acceptable when giving large increases then it would be hypocritical to criticise same system for low increase. Some groups in the public sector may not be happy with benchmarking at all but thats the problem with collective union bargaining.

**Risteard** · 11/01/2008, 10:24 AM

Is this decision separate from an annual increase in line with inflation?
I'm not talking about the incremental pay-rise for time served.

**anto1208** · 11/01/2008, 10:38 AM

about 8 years ago they got a 9% rise something like that.
Ive been working for 7 years after the first year i got a 14% rise its been 10% every year since.

The pension thing i dont consider, anyone in the private sector would be mad to pay into a pension having one paid for you is worthless.

I think the pay should be related to how well you work rather than just giving everyone a raise there are so many rubbish lazy nurses/gaurds/civil servents out there that should nt get anything but at the same time there are many fantastic hard working people that are getting really under paid.

**micls** · 11/01/2008, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by anto1208

I think the pay should be related to how well you work rather than just giving everyone a raise there are so many rubbish lazy nurses/gaurds/civil servents out there that should nt get anything but at the same time there are many fantastic hard working people that are getting really under paid.

While I agree with you, I think it's very hard to access though. In my job for example(teacher) I don't see how it could be properly assessed.

Basing it on students results is ridiculous imo.

The only way to do it would be to observe the actual teaching, if the curriculum is being implemented, the children learning and enjoying the process of learning etc.

However it would be nearly impossible to do. Even if it were to happen(similar to a whole school evaluation) they would only see maybe a day or a few days of your teaching. It would be quite easy for a good teacher to have an off day and a poor/lazy teacher to put in the effort for one day(or a few) for the money. I don't see how it would work.

Would love to see some fair system of assessment happen though but I dont think its feasible

**anto1208** · 11/01/2008, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by micls

While I agree with you, I think it's very hard to access though. In my job for example(teacher) I don't see how it could be properly assessed.

Basing it on students results is ridiculous imo.

The only way to do it would be to observe the actual teaching, if the curriculum is being implemented, the children learning and enjoying the process of learning etc.

However it would be nearly impossible to do. Even if it were to happen(similar to a whole school evaluation) they would only see maybe a day or a few days of your teaching. It would be quite easy for a good teacher to have an off day and a poor/lazy teacher to put in the effort for one day(or a few) for the money. I don't see how it would work.

Would love to see some fair system of assessment happen though but I dont think its feasible

Ya you couldnt use a results system as no teacher then would want the dumb kids. Even having the headmaster choose would be open to personal arguements getting in the way. I think it should be easier to fire people that dont do there job properly.Every body had at least 1 if not 2 teachers that was terrible.( my English teacher was a joke

)

But a lot of young people starting in the public sector have no job security teachers nurses etc are taken on temporary contracts for 6 months.

**Wolfie** · 11/01/2008, 12:37 PM

I'm working in the public service for 10 years and I don't know how anyone thought there would be any increases of note in the offing from this process.

Benchmarking has adressed the gap, indeed if the process was applied to its logical conclusion there may have been legitimate cases for adjustments downwards.

Could be trouble in the offing with Nursing. It was widely believed that the only reason that Nurses called off the recent strike was on an understanding that their claims would be addressed by the Benchmarking body. Won't be surprised if their out again during the year.

**Dricky** · 11/01/2008, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by micls

While I agree with you, I think it's very hard to access though. In my job for example(teacher) I don't see how it could be properly assessed.

Basing it on students results is ridiculous imo.

The only way to do it would be to observe the actual teaching, if the curriculum is being implemented, the children learning and enjoying the process of learning etc.

However it would be nearly impossible to do. Even if it were to happen(similar to a whole school evaluation) they would only see maybe a day or a few days of your teaching. It would be quite easy for a good teacher to have an off day and a poor/lazy teacher to put in the effort for one day(or a few) for the money. I don't see how it would work.

Would love to see some fair system of assessment happen though but I dont think its feasible

It could be done through taking more courses, continuous development etc, this would be of benefit to the whole education system, you should be encouraged to do more (the system in the schools where seniorority is the driving force behind jobs and posts is wrong and needs to be change so the best person is hired for the job).

to sit in a job (both private and public) and expect pay rises without adding to the company through greater knowledge gained outside of work is daft.

Benchmarking was a marketing tool to stop Unions striking

**OneRedArmy** · 11/01/2008, 4:21 PM

IIRC Irish civil service very well remunerated compared with other countries by comparison to private sector. Don't have time to reference this unfortunately as I'm too busy at work in the private sector

Presumably there would be more of an outcry on here from the public sector bunch but they've long since gone home on flexi-time

**osarusan** · 11/01/2008, 4:29 PM

just wait until that benchmark-lovin' boh so good gets a look at this thread.

**micls** · 11/01/2008, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by Dricky

It could be done through taking more courses, continuous development etc, this would be of benefit to the whole education system, you should be encouraged to do more (the system in the schools where seniorority is the driving force behind jobs and posts is wrong and needs to be change so the best person is hired for the job).

to sit in a job (both private and public) and expect pay rises without adding to the company through greater knowledge gained outside of work is daft.

Benchmarking was a marketing tool to stop Unions striking

I agree with you. At the moment, most teachers would do about(at least) 2 week long courses yearly(you get up to 5 course days free during the year for doing so).

But a lot of people take the 'easy' courses, or do courses online just to get the course days rather than being interested in it, and actually using it to improve themselves as teachers. I think the same would happen were there pay increases for doing courses

**inexile** · 11/01/2008, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by anto1208

Ya you couldnt use a results system as no teacher then would want the dumb kids. Even having the headmaster choose would be open to personal arguements getting in the way. I think it should be easier to fire people that dont do there job properly.Every body had at least 1 if not 2 teachers that was terrible.( my English teacher was a joke

)

But a lot of young people starting in the public sector have no job security teachers nurses etc are taken on temporary contracts for 6 months.

same with the gardai, just cos a guard goes out and arrests every second person he sees for the slightest thing doesnt neccessarily mean that he deserves more money than the fair guard who has a higher tolerance level than another one

**Dotsy** · 12/01/2008, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Risteard

Is this decision separate from an annual increase in line with inflation?
I'm not talking about the incremental pay-rise for time served.

Yes it is separate. Negotiations under the new national program Towards 2016 have still to take place. This is where the unions should be arguing for pay increases in line with inflation. That was never the purpose of benchmarking. Benchmarking did its job the last time around.

**BohsPartisan** · 12/01/2008, 5:31 PM

We don't get an annual increase in line with inflation!
A few obs on this. The senior civil servants who gave us such monumental disasters as Ppars and other things that didn't work have been given their pay rise. The rest of us who have to deal with the consequences of these fck ups get nowt.

**OwlsFan** · 12/01/2008, 6:47 PM

Civil servants don't have to contribute to their pensions and get twice their annual salary when they retire TAX FREE. Unconstitutional. God love them.