Lisbon Treaty

[pete]

I love early morning coverage of elections and referenda on RTÉ. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of ~1% complete tallies only to go furiously into reverse at the slightest indication that they might have been wrong.

I'd love to know who defined what were middle class and working class areas.

Newstalk read out a few results/tallies from individual boxes to give indication that working class areas have large No vote & middle class scraping Yes votes. The only areas I remember they mentioned were Cherry Orchard & Terenure

[Sheridan]

I live in a working class area which is cheek by jowl with a middle class (i.e., high-income, which is what I suspect RTÉ mean) area with which it shares polling stations and an electoral ward, I imagine the same holds for many urban districts.

[Macy]

One thing that was remarkable to me was the reasons people were giving for voting No. The No campaign was very effective in scaremongering. My wife was telling me that everyone in her workplace said they were voting no because otherwise their sons would end up conscripted into a European army FFS!

And people voted yes because they were convinced by the yes side we'd be chucked out of the EU, and that the sky would fall in. The majority of the electorate are thick - general election results show this.

* What persuaded you to vote Yes/No ?

I was leaning no, but was convinced by the failure of the Government not to give committments on workers rights, which would've balanced the free market elements. Several of the largest unions came out on this issue, including the one in which I'm an activist. For SIPTU to fail to back the Government in itself enough to convince me it had to be bad for the worker.

I also took into account the promises from the yes side pre Nice 2 in which they said that wages wouldn't be eroded by businesses exploiting immigrants. I wasn't going to fall for it again when they say that ordinary workers have nothing to fear from what is such a pro business treaty. We're behind even the Thatcherite UK in terms of workers rights, never mind the rest of Europe, on whose legislation this treaty was based.

I would generally pro europe, and would probably have voted yes it had had the social aspects that the likes of Youth Defence said it had. Unfortunately it was too much a business charter on the elements that would really effect us.

[noby]

The coin landed on heads.

I couldn't say specifically, just after listening to a lot of debates on the subject a decision was kind of formed in my mind.

[Calcio Jack]

2 detailed leaflets, one in the legalese speak of the actual treaty and the other a breakdown by the Referendum Commission, were delivered to your door. This wasn't enough? Instead you ask a few laypeople with no more important role than cross out names on a register for advice, despite their express instructions not to influence people in any way? And then, rebuffed, you choose one side over the other, as if the people at the desk were the Yes side, and a personal dislike swayed you more than threats of joblessness or EU imperialism? From previous arguments, you don't always come across as the most lucid of thinkers, but this was certainly foggy thinking.

My point is that I was entitled to be given a copy of the Treaty at the polling station by the people working there ( I had that confirmed by the Dept of Enviro today), and they as State employess either weren't trained properly or weren't bothered. In essence for me that summed up the whole lazyness/ambiguity taken by the State in relation to this.

Thus for me it was the 'clincher' in terms of deciding, had nothing to do with being angry, but acted as the tipping point for what was for me a most difficult decision, as I know well that the Treaty isn't perfect but offers as many positives as negatives.

As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?

If it turns out to be a 'no' as seems likely based on early tallies, then maybe next time ( I firmly belive we'll be asked to vote again) hopefully the Govt and yes camp will make a real effort at explaining the positives rather than issuing threats etc.

[jebus]

I wonder will MyPost come on and criticise Calcio for his method of choosing considering his condemnation of Kingdom Hoop's method yesterday?

[dublinred]

I voted No and betted on No , the french guy telling us how to vote when his own people were not given the choice was the turning point for me and a lot of voters.

[jebus]

Fassaugh Avenue?

Not a bad guess as I'm on the same bus route and pass through there everyday

[pete]

With question above I was interested to know if any campaigners had an impact one way or the other.

If this is a No vote will be a very bad start for Brian Cowan. He won't have the option of Lisbon 2 either.

Who takes those jobs in the voting centres? I presume mainly teachers or just nosy people?

[Calcio Jack]

With question above I was interested to know if any campaigners had an impact one way or the other.

If this is a No vote will be a very bad start for Brian Cowan. He won't have the option of Lisbon 2 either.

Who takes those jobs in the voting centres? I presume mainly teachers or just nosy people?

If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote.. as for who takes the jobs...from my experience brain dead lazy people

[Lionel Ritchie]

Open question to all:

* What persuaded you to vote Yes/No ?

My three year old son. Still undecided at 8.00pm last night I asked him, as he changed into his jimjams, what he reckoned ...Tá or Nil? He said Tá.

I said "Are you sure? ...coz it'll be your ass in a slit trench in the heathen East not mine". He said Tá ...his eyes and mind alight with wonder and the screams of Johnny Turk wriggling on the end of his bayonette.

[GavinZac]

My point is that I was entitled to be given a copy of the Treaty at the polling station by the people working there ( I had that confirmed by the Dept of Enviro today), and they as State employess either weren't trained properly or weren't bothered. In essence for me that summed up the whole lazyness/ambiguity taken by the State in relation to this.

State employees? Its random people off the street. They turn up every few years because they know someone and its an easy €400.

As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?

There was a No box and a Yes box. People would have been going in to vote No or Yes. Tick as appropriate. It took me all of 30 seconds, and that included moving to the next booth as the pencil had broken.

If it turns out to be a 'no' as seems likely based on early tallies, then maybe next time ( I firmly belive we'll be asked to vote again) hopefully the Govt and yes camp will make a real effort at explaining the positives rather than issuing threats etc.

Perhaps either side will, or perhaps people will not be swayed by ridiculous claims on posters (some of the Yes ones weren't inculpable of hysteria either) and will actually educate themselves before voting. Instead we have a situation where in conversation last night my parents told me they'd voted No because of fuel prices.

[pete]

If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote.. as for who takes the jobs...from my experience brain dead lazy people

I only mentioned as I did not care for old wan telling me her maiden name was the same as my surname. Serious job demarcation too - one person to read the card & one to operate the pen & ruler.

[OneRedArmy]

Yes side is coming back strongly.

Anyone know do they open boxes in chronological order?

Reports of a last minute surge before polling closed last night should favour the yes side.

[OneRedArmy]

If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote..

Bearing in mind the French have said as recently as last night that its dead in the water if there's a 'no' vote all indications point otherwise.

[jebus]

RTE reports suggest that the Yes vote is gaining on No, **has mental pictures of Lionel Ritchie as the punter in Paddy Powers tearing up his 'sure thing' ticket and stomping on it before marching out to the sounds of Germans doing a jig**

[GavinZac]

RTE reports suggest that the Yes vote is gaining on No, **has mental pictures of Lionel Ritchie as the punter in Paddy Powers tearing up his 'sure thing' ticket and stomping on it before marching out to the sounds of Germans doing a jig**

Jig? I suppose its better than the goose-stepping they'll be doing on the way to the Belgian border if the Nays have it.

[GavinZac]

Not a bad guess as I'm on the same bus route and pass through there everyday

Beyond Faussaugh Avenue? Christ, there be dragons!

[Calcio Jack]

State employees? Its random people off the street. They turn up every few years because they know someone and its an easy €400.

What I meant in that on the day they are working in the polling station they are State employees...what they do the rest of the time is not relevant.



Perhaps either side will, or perhaps people will not be swayed by ridiculous claims on posters (some of the Yes ones weren't inculpable of hysteria either) and will actually educate themselves before voting. Instead we have a situation where in conversation last night my parents told me they'd voted No because of fuel prices.

I've no doubt that a significent part of the 'no' was driven by the fact that many people are really p/off by the way the economy has turned during the last 12 monts and especially by the manner in which FF have started to renage on election promises... thus Cowen is been given a 'good kicking' by many people...not a logical way to vote but a very human way...but that's what you get when you let the 'little people' vote...a Totalatarian approach IMO might be worth considering for the good of the people.

[Sheridan]

Lucinda Creighton on RTE just basically said working class voters rejected the treaty because they were stupid racists and middle class voters didn't because they more astute.