Lisbon Treaty

[Poor Student]

or the Catholic Church either.

When has the Catholic Church come out on the No side? The only comments I've seen from the church here was insisting that the Lisbon Treaty does not affect abortion in Ireland.

[Macy]

If you can't understand it, or the informaton from the Commission etc, then either don't vote or spoil you're vote. How can you decide Yes or No on something you don't understand?

If in doubt, you have to vote No. If it isn't being explained properly or you can't understand it then you're quite right to vote no.

More of the same scare tactics from the Yes side over the weekend about our standing in Europe, foreign direct investment etc etc, without addressing the issues such as privatisation of health and education. These issues, along with the Governments failure to give the commitment to fully implement the charter of fundamental rights (probably my main issue) means that I'm a definite no.

Despite how I've posted I would've been undecided, leaning No, basically the failure to be able to get proper commitments from the Yes side means I've made up my mind. GavinZac is pretty much making the Yes side arguments here that you hear in TV, Radio, in person from the Yes side. It has no substance and doesn't address the very real concerns. A few express commitments from the politicians would've probably been enough.

[GavinZac]

If in doubt, you have to vote No. If it isn't being explained properly or you can't understand it then you're quite right to vote no.

No, no you're not. You're supposed to vote on the issue at hand. If you haven't bothered your arse to understand it and are going on the ridiculous lies that are being bandied about, you're not voting on the treaty and making a mockery of your vote, and remember, as one No poster points out "People died for your freedom" - don't abuse it because you don't like Fianna Fail.

More of the same scare tactics from the Yes side over the weekend about our standing in Europe, foreign direct investment etc etc, without addressing the issues such as privatisation of health and education.

They aren't being addressed because they aren't bloody issues, despite the lies. I am a socialist, I voted SP in the last election. If I thought there was a chance this would lead to privatised education or would have any influence on a further privitised health system (sadly I think we're going that way anyway, not because of the Lisbon treaty but because, like RTE with their state funding and commercial advertising, we're just too small to support a world class health care system on our own) then I would be voting no.

These issues, along with the Governments failure to give the commitment to fully implement the charter of fundamental rights (probably my main issue) means that I'm a definite no.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The government, who are trying to get this passed, in your view might not implement the rights charter, so you're voting no so that they can't and any future governments can't? What led you to that logic?

Despite how I've posted I would've been undecided, leaning No, basically the failure to be able to get proper commitments from the Yes side means I've made up my mind. GavinZac is pretty much making the Yes side arguments here that you hear in TV, Radio, in person from the Yes side. It has no substance and doesn't address the very real concerns. A few express commitments from the politicians would've probably been enough.

Thats the problem. You're seeing no substance where there is, because it isn't in the form of vague threats to our constitution, and concerns where there are none, because apparently you trust some faceless lobby group and the desperate dying throes of Sinn Fein and the Social Party for your information.

[Macy]

don't abuse it because you don't like Fianna Fail.

The parties I actually voted for/ gave preferences too are also supporting it so that's kinda irrelevant to me (even if I do hate the rotten to the core corrupt baskets ).

They aren't being addressed because they aren't bloody issues, despite the lies. I am a socialist, I voted SP in the last election. If I thought there was a chance this would lead to privatised education or would have any influence on a further privitised health system (sadly I think we're going that way anyway, not because of the Lisbon treaty but because, like RTE with their state funding and commercial advertising, we're just too small to support a world class health care system on our own) then I would be voting no.

They won't give the commitment because they can't. The fact that it's Government policy to privatise health I suppose would make it hard for them to give a commitment that this treaty will have any effect. The elemen

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The government, who are trying to get this passed, in your view might not implement the rights charter, so you're voting no so that they can't and any future governments can't? What led you to that logic?

They won't give the commitment to implement the workers rights elements of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which Ireland has an opt out on (or rather it's linked to the national governments) contrary to most EU countries. So we'll get the liberalisation of common good markets (including health and education) without having the balancing side of workers rights to representation and collective bargaining. Martin just said the Government would "consider" such legislation - campaign speak for "not on your nelly, our IBEC bankrollers would never let us". It clearly isn't a lie that this is an issue, as the Yes side haven't once said it is, so I'll be voting No.

[pete]

Does any one else think those Ref Comm adverts are terrible. Amazing someone got paid to make them.

I think it would be logical to assume any one voting Yes on Thursday has voted Yes for previous Treaties. Any one voting No this time that voted Yes for previous Treaties?

I feel the vote will be tight on Thursday (always the way with EU Referendums) but suspect the Yes side more likely to actually vote. If Bertie Ahern was still Taoiseach there would be no chance of passing this in light of recent Tribunal evidence as the protest vote would swing it.

Just when I thought enough wackos on the No side I see Eamon Dunphy calling for No vote.

[Macy]

I feel the vote will be tight on Thursday (always the way with EU Referendums) but suspect the Yes side more likely to actually vote.

I would've thought the opposite, but wasn't one of the polls over the weekend that put the yes side ahead based on those that would actually vote?

[GavinZac]

They won't give the commitment to implement the workers rights elements of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which Ireland has an opt out on (or rather it's linked to the national governments) contrary to most EU countries. So we'll get the liberalisation of common good markets (including health and education) without having the balancing side of workers rights to representation and collective bargaining. Martin just said the Government would "consider" such legislation - campaign speak for "not on your nelly, our IBEC bankrollers would never let us". It clearly isn't a lie that this is an issue, as the Yes side haven't once said it is, so I'll be voting No.

But by voting no, you're voting no to the Charter of Fundamental Rights? Whether or not they'll implement it (Im not sure why you think they wouldnt, workers already have those rights here, this is just a europe-wide agreement to agree upon the same for the new arrivals), if your preferred political party was elected, they couldn't implement it either should it be rejected.

[Macy]

But by voting no, you're voting no to the Charter of Fundamental Rights? Whether or not they'll implement it (Im not sure why you think they wouldnt, workers already have those rights here, this is just a europe-wide agreement to agree upon the same for the new arrivals), if your preferred political party was elected, they couldn't implement it either should it be rejected.

I'm voting no to the Charter of Fundamental Rights as it'll stand in Ireland. I'm voting no to the free market/ competition side of it whilst there is no commitment to balance that with workers rights. The same workers rights that most of europe enjoys - ffs we're behind even the UK in terms of right to representation! Unless the Government commits to introduce such legislation, then the Charter of Fundamental Rights is basically just a business charter.

[mypost]

Any one voting No this time that voted Yes for previous Treaties?

Mypost.

The no side have the momentum, all that's needed is to translate that momentum into votes on Thursday.

If you consider yourself European, then Irish, you'll vote yes. If you wish to defend democracy, uphold the rejection by French and Dutch electorates in 2005, and protect Ireland's place in the EU, you'll vote no. Fairly straight forward really.

[Block G Raptor]

Big push by the No campaign in Grafton St (Dublin) at lunchtime today. I was handed a leaflet by a bloke claiming to be a Malteese Politician, Which said that the EU has a secret Police force that has Raped, Murdered and Sexually abused EU citizens for the past 12 years, carried out grotesque experiments on mentally disabled kids in eastern europe and plans a Naziesque take over of all member states(all with the full knowledge and support of the EU leadership) . Now I've heard some whacky arguments from both sides but this one really is laughable. anyone else get handed one of these leaflets today. I am voting No to this treaty, but people like this lunatic are not going to do the No campaign any good

[dahamsta]

I've been meaning to ask: is Newstalk very slanted towards a No vote or are they genuinely picking up the feeling on the street?

[Student Mullet]

I've been meaning to ask: is Newstalk very slanted towards a No vote or are they genuinely picking up the feeling on the street?

Probably a bit of both. Newstalk always tries to give the government and 'the establishment' a hard time but RTÉ is the opposite so I don't think much of it.

[BohsPartisan]

@ Poor Student, it is clear that if you support Privatisation, Continental government, the rule of the few over the many etc. then you will be for this treaty. (Why is privatisation of public services bad? Do you want Micahel O'Leary, Dennis O'Brien or Tony O'Reilly running the health service and Education? How is it anything but bad?)In my view all those things are bad and in your view not so. I'm pointing out to anyone who thinks the Lisbon Treaty and public services not run for profit, workers rights, national sovereignty are compatible to show they are not. I have demonstrated that. As the quotes show, and actually there are plenty more from people like them, there is a deliberate attempt to cover up these aspects of the treaty.

The people of France and the Netherlands rejected this treay in its previous guise for those very reasons, now the clique that run the EU have decided that those countries will not get to vote again. So already we have democratic rights being removed. Sarkozy said the reason for this is that the french people would just vote it down again.

As for the context of D'Estaign's quote, it was from an interview in Le Monde on the differences between the Lisbon Treaty and the EU Constitution. In the interview he said that it was more or less the same thing and that there were some small changes - like the word constitution to avoid referendums. On why it was reworded he gave that quote.

Finally if you have to question Caesar's ideology, then you really are a poor student.

[pete]

Fairly bored with the debate at this stage as it has been debated to death & I think everyone has made up their minds at this stage. Only decision left to decide to cast vote.

Seen some of Q&A tonight. Terrible choice of panelists. Ganley (Libertas), Mary Lou, Michael Martin & Enda. I think Ganley made a fool of himself when refused to say Abortion cannot be forced on us - showed had no ethos at all & just looking to confuse. Very good joke from the audience about SF trying to stop US war planes at Shannon & Ganley trying to sell them his products.

[superfrank]

Both sides managed to land a few blows but nothing Earth-shattering.

[SMorgan]

Seen some of Q&A tonight. Terrible choice of panelists. Ganley (Libertas), Mary Lou, Michael Martin & Enda. I think Ganley made a fool of himself when refused to say Abortion cannot be forced on us - showed had no ethos at all & just looking to confuse. Very good joke from the audience about SF trying to stop US war planes at Shannon & Ganley trying to sell them his products.

Couldn't disagree more. I thought it was Martin that made a fool of himself. He was intent in shouting everybody down then complained that he was being interupted when he was speaking. Even Kenny couldn't get a word in edgeways with him. It wasn't as if he was making good points either. He was intent in addressing points that the No side aren't making. He spent the whole evening setting up his own targets to shoot down.

Martin gave Ganlely opportunities to ask him had he read the Treaty.

I made the No side the clear winners of last night's Q&A debate.

[Ash]

Do you want Micahel O'Leary, Dennis O'Brien or Tony O'Reilly running the health service and Education?

Now that is a harrowing thought.
Arrive into hospital ... €5 for the bed, and extra €10 if you didnt check-in online.
Overnight bag ... €10 per/night. But theres a 2 for 1 offer on sachets of
selected medicines. Surcharge for anesthetic ... the list goes on ....

Was in Tullamore on Saturday for Offaly-Westmeath match and unfortunately a load of little shytes
took advantage of the traffic stand still to take down some No posters and run up and down the
road shouting "Vote No" at everyone.
(PS I not calling the little shytes for promoting No, just that they were annoying so a lot of older
people probably now think its only the Ra and young hooligans who want a no vote!)

[Macy]

I've been meaning to ask: is Newstalk very slanted towards a No vote or are they genuinely picking up the feeling on the street?

I would've thought it was probably the most neutral. Interesting that Keane is off the last two weeks, as he really is basically the only one on any of the national stations who will ask the obvious (and hard questions) imo. RTE has generally been very bias, but then it always takes the Government line.

The Last Word last night and Morning Ireland this morning conveniently only having time left, in the interests of balance, for Cowan at this late stage. I really thought Cooper was better than that.

[anto1208]

Now that is a harrowing thought.
Arrive into hospital ... €5 for the bed, and extra €10 if you didnt check-in online.
Overnight bag ... €10 per/night. But theres a 2 for 1 offer on sachets of
selected medicines. Surcharge for anesthetic ... the list goes on ....

How amazing would that be i spent a few days in hospital 570 euro a night for a bed in a room with 3 others got a wrong diagnoisis sent home with all the wrong meds in agony for a week went back spent a few more days in there with docs guessing what was wrong!!

If i could get a Ryanair style 50 euro in and out in 2 hours treament from voting yes ill be voting Yes !!.

[dahamsta]

Let's drop the Ryanair analogies now please, and get back on topic.