Lisbon Treaty

[celticV3]

ok, so which one of the Yes sides scare tactics was bigger than the No sides preposterous forced legalisation of abortion and universal conscrlption scares?

Well I think the whole "we will lose a representative european minister" and the "we will lose out financially" bull that was being fed to us in every national newspaper, television station and radio programme was far more significant than scaring a few conservative aul christians

[kingdom hoop]

There may have been counter scare tactics but on a much smaller scale and with far less publicity than the efforts of the Yes vote.

Not how it's been recorded in history though:

Libertas, the anti-treaty entity run by businessman Declan Ganley, spent more on commercial advertisements than all the political parties put together, according to the figures.

^^from Irish Times in July, link to click



Also, bear in mind that Libertas today announced that they're running candidates in the European elections in as many Member States as they can. Ganley is touting those elections as countries' mini-referenda on the Lisbon Treaty. Hardly a publicity-prude thing to say. (more at libertas.eu)

That's the machine's structure and engine, the facts.
Nothing overly wrong with publicity per se. But IMO Libertas's campaign is predicated entirely on scare tactics: the oil driving the engine is dirty, there's very little of substance proffered by Ganley or his minions. It's all about the lack of transparency and accountability of Brussels, yet (and leaving aside the seeming hypocrisy of Ganley saying that) in the experience of my ears they haven't offered any examples of how that has manifested or how it might do so - what practical examples are there of the EU acting against the populace's wishes, or in the future, how the structure might be ameliorated (Ganley claims he doesn't want the disintegration of the Union). "The whole blasted thing is corrupt, damn it!" is the message I'm receiving. Seems to ignore worthwhile issues; and instead negatively prey on people's fears rather than positively appeal to our intellect.

[mypost]

The guarantee of a comissioner for each state is a joke. Is there really a need for 27 comissioners?

It's not a joke, it's what we're entitled to as an EU member state, together with the entitlement to hold the Presidency with full autonomy for 6 months. The current plan per Lisbon, is for a permanent unelected EU President for 2.5 years. It's a non-starter imo.

We have had the Nice Treaty for 6, going on 7 years. It allowed for the expansion of the bloc from the then 15 members, which I backed. It has worked very well, without compromising national sovereignty or democracy. There's no better alternative available at the present time.

[superfrank]

No. They will have to make up some roles. It will get worse when we have new members. How do you suddenly have 28 Commissioners when you get 1 more member. The same people who complain about this issue are the same ones that complain about EU bureaucracy.

The current list is bad enough.

Thanks for giving a proper answer pete.

[OneRedArmy]

It's not a joke, it's what we're entitled to as an EU member state, together with the entitlement to hold the Presidency with full autonomy for 6 months. .

Just because we're entitled to it doesn't make it right!

We have had the Nice Treaty for 6, going on 7 years. It allowed for the expansion of the bloc from the then 15 members, which I backed. It has worked very well, without compromising national sovereignty or democracy. There's no better alternative available at the present time.

Nice hasn't worked well in the current financial crisis. This is pretty much a consensus view of the media, left, right and centre.

[gilberto_eire]

I voted Yes last time, but i'm going to vote no this time, mainly for the fact that after refusing this treaty it's back less then a year later(time?) with no changes.....

[mypost]

Just because we're entitled to it doesn't make it right!

They allow us to have some clout and influence in the EU. We have our entitlements as a member state, and we're under no obligation to give any of them up.

Nice hasn't worked well in the current financial crisis.

The financial crisis however bad, is temporary. Each government reserves the right to decide what policies they should adopt in order to recover. Some have decided to stimulate their economies, others will make cutbacks on public spending, ours have decided to raise taxes.

Lisbon if ratified, is permanent, regardless of economic and other political conditions.

[superfrank]

They allow us to have some clout and influence in the EU. We have our entitlements as a member state, and we're under no obligation to give any of them up.

They're not there to be used in the interests of the country, they're there for the interests of the EU.

Someone put it brilliantly: There is no such thing as an Irish comissioner, there's just a comissioner that happens to be Irish.

If the No idiots (who voted no on that reason) out there realised this, they might not be so outraged.

[mypost]

They're not there to be used in the interests of the country.

We're still entitled to it regardless.

[superfrank]

We're still entitled to it regardless.

pete's post summed it up for me. There's no need for 27 comissioners. It's just adding to the EU bureaucracy.

[mypost]

Saying we don't need 27 commissioners, is like saying a small country like here, doesn't need 83 TD's to form a government. If that was the case, FF* would be in single-party power permanently.

*They always have the highest amount of party seats, even in opposition.

[osarusan]

mypost, if we accept that you voted 'no' because of serious reservations you held about the benefits this treaty had for the welfare and autonomy of Ireland, then we can assume you are not against new treaties as a rule, but rather you will weigh up a treaty on the merits of that treaty?

Is that fair to say?

[micls]

2) With no protection from our Commissioner, they conscript our menfolk to fight an unjust war.

Dara O brien had some great comments about this 'Any war where they need to conscript from 470million people is a war we need to be apart of, we cant just tell teh little green men that we're neutrl and we had a vote '

[mypost]

mypost, if we accept that you voted 'no' because of serious reservations you held about the benefits this treaty had for the welfare and autonomy of Ireland, then we can assume you are not against new treaties as a rule, but rather you will weigh up a treaty on the merits of that treaty?

Is that fair to say?

It would be fair. Any treaty though would have to preserve our entitlements as stated above, in order for me to back it. That Presidency issue is not just important for us, but also vital in case the current President's relations with other countries are strained at any given time.

Round Two has been regrettably announced by Cowen and co. Instead of putting his head on the block over domestic issues, he's decided to risk his career and credibility on getting Lisbon passed at considerable expense to the country's depleted resources. Best have it in September really. There's no point in a big recess during the summer, recalling parliament amid a reshuffle in the last week of September, then put everything on hold again in October over the EU Constitution.

But whenever it's called, we'll be ready to remind him what we said 6 months ago.

[OneRedArmy]

We're still entitled to it regardless.

And we're entitled to vote by reforenda as many times as we want on whatever subject the Government of the day see fit.

Glad we cleared that up. That's one less ridiculous argument for you to use.

[pete]

For what it is worth I think Lisbon II will probably pass. It is a year before thsi will be held & the voters will take their domestic frustrations out of the government in the Local & Euro elections.

While i think the legal guarantees are pathetic & embarrassing as a nation they will prevent the No side campaigning on those issues. If the NO side cannot campaign on EU Commissioner, Abortion or Neutrality what is left?

Permanent EU President for 2 1/2 years is a perfectly reasonable improvement to the structures of the EU. When a small nation like Ireland held the Presidency Bertie was awol on domestic issues for that time. We also need a figurehead of the Union as issues cannot be solved in 6 monthly cycles.

[Bald Student]

While i think the legal guarantees are pathetic & embarrassing as a nation they will prevent the No side campaigning on those issues. If the NO side cannot campaign on EU Commissioner, Abortion or Neutrality what is left?

They'll make some other stuff up to scare us. The other side will probably do the same and we'll end up with a similar campaign as last time.

The only thing that might make a change is the fact that Cowen's job will be on the line so FF might put their weight properly behind the campaign. But that's a double edged sword.

[mypost]

For what it is worth I think Lisbon II will probably pass.

That's what most thought last time, until the boxes were opened.

When a small nation like Ireland held the Presidency Bertie was awol on domestic issues for that time.

Such as??

We also need a figurehead of the Union as issues cannot be solved in 6 monthly cycles.

They have been. See our role as President.

While i think the legal guarantees are pathetic & embarrassing as a nation they will prevent the No side campaigning on those issues. If the NO side cannot campaign on EU Commissioner, Abortion or Neutrality what is left?

Plenty left. How about;

• The loss of our voting weights, the qmv system, workers rights?? or
  
• The refusal to respect Lisbon 1, the refusal to grant more countries referendums, the insulting by the "leader" of our electorate in calling another one here?? or maybe even
  
• The lies stated, aka "guarantees" which are not protocols, and therefore not legal, the "common defence" issues which still remain unchanged, and the point blank refusal to get a better deal for this country and for EU citizens??

That's just for starters. Take your pick.

If he thinks he's going to reverse the result of 33 constituencies last June, on the basis of one miserly concession, he can think again.

[pete]

The loss of our voting weights, the qmv system, workers rights?? or

It is currently undemocratic that a person in Ireland has 14 times the voting power of a German person. Only correct we reduce that a bit. New QVM rules protect the power of small countries by ensuring need significant majority of both population & country numbers. large countries cannot push through issues. Workers rights? Without the EU we wouldn't need to worry about that as wouldn't have any jobs.

The refusal to respect Lisbon 1, the refusal to grant more countries referendums, the insulting by the "leader" of our electorate in calling another one here?? or maybe even

The EU is made up of sovereign nations governed by their own laws. We cannot force other countries to have referendums. I suppose the government would argue that they have addressed the concerns of people after Lisbon I.

The lies stated, aka "guarantees" which are not protocols, and therefore not legal, the "common defence" issues which still remain unchanged, and the point blank refusal to get a better deal for this country and for EU citizens??

Do you really think the EU want the Irish army so badly they have to trick us into it even using false legal guarantees? As said above if they need us so badly it would be a War we could not opt out as would be so big.

We already participate with the EU force in Chad. The EU would better off peacekeeping in conflict zones without the restrictions of UN security council whims. We should be proud to be part of that.

[Réiteoir]

Nothing overly wrong with publicity per se. But IMO Libertas's campaign is predicated entirely on scare tactics: the oil driving the engine is dirty, there's very little of substance proffered by Ganley or his minions. It's all about the lack of transparency and accountability of Brussels, yet (and leaving aside the seeming hypocrisy of Ganley saying that) in the experience of my ears they haven't offered any examples of how that has manifested or how it might do so - what practical examples are there of the EU acting against the populace's wishes, or in the future, how the structure might be ameliorated (Ganley claims he doesn't want the disintegration of the Union). "The whole blasted thing is corrupt, damn it!" is the message I'm receiving. Seems to ignore worthwhile issues; and instead negatively prey on people's fears rather than positively appeal to our intellect.

Reminds me somewhat of the tactics employed by these lot back in the 90s:

http://bellaciao.org/en/IMG/gif/PAdemoneyes.gif