Lisbon Treaty

[mypost]

Looking very likely that Lisbon II will be held next Autumn. Will be changed to ensure all countries retain EU Commissioner i.e. 27+ Commissioners.

Not remotely near good enough.

Martin and Cowen going on and on this week about "listening and responding to the concerns of our electorate" from the vote. We only had one simple message from the vote. Bit like the song.

"No, no, never".

[OneRedArmy]

Not remotely near good enough.

Martin and Cowen going on and on this week about "listening and responding to the concerns of our electorate" from the vote. We only had one simple message from the vote. Bit like the song.

"No, no, never".

Your post is conflicting.

In the first sentence you suggest the concessions aren't enough to secure a yes vote. Which indicates that you are opening to voting again subject to concessions being enough.

Yet the rest of the post indicates that there shouldn't be another referendum under any circumstances.

As mentioned previously on the thread, you are about as consistent as Declan Ganley.

[pete]

Your post is conflicting.

In the first sentence you suggest the concessions aren't enough to secure a yes vote. Which indicates that you are opening to voting again subject to concessions being enough.

Yet the rest of the post indicates that there shouldn't be another referendum under any circumstances.

As mentioned previously on the thread, you are about as consistent as Declan Ganley.

Got to agree with that. You get some people who say they are pro EU but when asked what changes they want in the Lisbon Treaty they don't want any.

Politically Cowen has to get changes for Lisbon II to be run. Not sure if EU Commissioner would be enough.

[mypost]

Your post is conflicting.

In the first sentence you suggest the concessions aren't enough to secure a yes vote. Which indicates that you are opening to voting again subject to concessions being enough.

Yet the rest of the post indicates that there shouldn't be another referendum under any circumstances.

As mentioned previously on the thread, you are about as consistent as Declan Ganley.

I'm not, and never was open to voting again.

The point made is, if that's the best concession they could squeeze out of Brussels*, that is not addressing the general electorate's concerns, and they will not change their mind as a result.

*Getting guarantees/declarations on other issues are legally useless, and can be changed at any time.

[OneRedArmy]

Despite Mypost's vehement objections, it looks like a re-vote is inevitable.

Expect the Yes campaign to use the carrot of the concession of keping own Commissioner (who still isn't mandated to vote in Ireland's interest) and the "stick" of the plight of Iceland (and the impending plight of the UK) as countries not within the EU inner circle and suffering because of it, as leverage.

I somehow think mandatory conscription and abortion won't feature as strongly this time around.

Here's hoping (against my better judgement) the campaign will get down to the real issues this time.

And Declan Ganley might even be forced to reveal his agenda and/or the source of his funding.

[pete]

I somehow think mandatory conscription and abortion won't feature as strongly this time around.

Surely Cowan require the EU to sign a legal guarantee that everything we are scared of won't be forced on us covertly?

It is a joke looking for legal guarantee of neutrality again. Do people still think the EU has an agenda to conscript us Irish into a fictional army & fictional war. Of course they need us so badly have to trick us via EU Treaty

[OneRedArmy]

It is a joke looking for legal guarantee of neutrality again. Do people still think the EU has an agenda to conscript us Irish into a fictional army & fictional war. Of course they need us so badly have to trick us via EU Treaty

Its a three stage process.

1) They take away "our" Commissioner.

2) With no protection from our Commissioner, they conscript our menfolk to fight an unjust war.

3) They force our womenfolk to have abortions. Since all the men of age are away fighting the unjust war, I'm not exactly sure how the women get pregnant, but most probably they are raped by immigrants from new accession states.

[corkboy360]

This will never be the peoples choice they will just keep running treaties until the people of Ireland vote yes.

[mypost]

Expect the Yes campaign to use the "stick" of the plight of Iceland (and the impending plight of the UK) as countries not within the EU inner circle and suffering because of it, as leverage.

We're suffering now, from the financial crisis. Contrary to the government's view, we were not sheltered by being part of the EU or Euro for well documented reasons. In any case, Lisbon is not about money, it's about power and control. The strengthening of it at EU level and the weakening of it here. Ratifying the Lisbon treaty won't boost the economy. It hasn't in countries far bigger than us that have ratified, so it isn't going to boost it here either.

[OneRedArmy]

Contrary to the government's view, we were not sheltered by being part of the EU or Euro for well documented reasons.

Whatever about the rest of your post this is plain wrong.

If the punt was still in existance we would be in a very similar position to Iceland. A small, open economy, over-borrowed and reliant on foreign investment at all levels. There's a strong chance the UK is going to be forced into the Euro so what would've made us different?

You've said its well documented that we weren't sheltered, show me where?

[mypost]

If the punt was still in existance we would be in a very similar position to Iceland. A small, open economy, over-borrowed and reliant on foreign investment at all levels. There's a strong chance the UK is going to be forced into the Euro so what would've made us different?

You've said its well documented that we weren't sheltered, show me where?

Iceland has always been isolated, partly through geography, mostly because of their resistance to EU membership down through the years. They didn't suddenly become isolated in the past 3 or 4 months.

We are already heavily suffering from the economic downturn. Unemployment is the highest in 13 years, and will continue to rise, the pay deal agreed is worthless, exchequer figures have collapsed, growth has stalled for the first time in decades, so we aren't sheltered at all from the financial crisis. We are taking heavy punches. Ratifying Lisbon won't help us in that regard. It hasn't done so anywhere else.

[superfrank]

The guarantee of a comissioner for each state is a joke. Is there really a need for 27 comissioners?

This will never be the peoples choice they will just keep running treaties until the people of Ireland vote yes.

If the No side really believe this, why don't they just vote Yes then and get it over with.

And Declan Ganley might even be forced to reveal his agenda and/or the source of his funding.

If the EU and the Gov put it into the Treaty that they'll stop digging into his affairs, I'm sure Ganley will switch his backing to the Yes side.

[eamo1]

Why have another referendum on whats basically the same document?????There were multiple reasons why we voted NO,and giving us a commisoner is just one of a host of changes that should be made to it but they think just changing that will swing it for them.
I'll be renewing my vigorous campaigning next Autumn,BRING IT ON!!!!!!!

[mypost]

The official reason, is to have the new EU commission formed under Lisbon rules. This appears strange, as the elections will be held under Nice rules.

The real reason is to link the state of the economy to the vote, in order to spread fear among the electorate, and get the 3 times rejected document past us. The political equivalent of diving to win a penalty in injury time.

[corkboy360]

The guarantee of a comissioner for each state is a joke. Is there really a need for 27 comissioners?

If the No side really believe this, why don't they just vote Yes then and get it over with.

If the EU and the Gov put it into the Treaty that they'll stop digging into his affairs, I'm sure Ganley will switch his backing to the Yes side.

It's more of a fact at this stage

[pete]

The guarantee of a comissioner for each state is a joke. Is there really a need for 27 comissioners?

No. They will have to make up some roles. It will get worse when we have new members. How do you suddenly have 28 Commissioners when you get 1 more member. The same people who complain about this issue are the same ones that complain about EU bureaucracy.

The current list is bad enough.

[celticV3]

The treaty is clearly bad for ireland and its people as a whole. Cowen and Co. will keep pushing it as the lapdogs of european politics that they are.

The people voted No once against political scare tactics and media bias, I'm certain they will vote No again.

[osarusan]

The people voted No once against political scare tactics

To be fair, there was plenty of that from both sides.

[celticV3]

To be fair, there was plenty of that from both sides.

There may have been counter scare tactics but on a much smaller scale and with far less publicity than the efforts of the Yes vote.

[OneRedArmy]

There may have been counter scare tactics but on a much smaller scale and with far less publicity than the efforts of the Yes vote.

ok, so which one of the Yes sides scare tactics was bigger than the No sides preposterous forced legalisation of abortion and universal conscrlption scares?