Lisbon Treaty

**mypost** · 03/10/2009, 4:32 PM

Mypost recognises the outcome of the referendum.

Today is not a victory for the Irish people, it's a victory for fear and delusion from the Irish political establishment and the economic elite, who have made hundreds of thousands of people's lives misery in recent times, and will continue to do so. So offers of congratulations from them are hollow and meaningless.

I would like to thank the number of voters who stood up to the government and their cronies, and wanted to protect the hard won democracy and sacred constitution of our country, which is now redundant. Ireland therefore ceases to become a republic, and is now an EU Province forthwith, beholden entirely to the orders of Brussels and Frankfurt.

We lost today's battle, but history will show that we made the right call for Ireland and Europe.

**Mr A** · 03/10/2009, 5:32 PM

Sanity has prevailed. Onwards and upwards.

**dahamsta** · 03/10/2009, 6:04 PM

mypost, talking about yourself in the third person is a first indicator of insanity.

Mr A, in here that's a troll, and you know it is. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else I warned about this before, but I won't do it again either way.

adam

**Sheridan** · 03/10/2009, 6:04 PM

A black day for democracy, and a dangerous one too. A lot of No voters stayed at home because, after what happened last time, they realised their vote for worthless. When there's this much anger against the establishment as a whole out there, and you prevent people from effecting change through democratic and constitutional means, you open Pandora's box.

**dahamsta** · 03/10/2009, 6:09 PM

(That's an end to my support of Europe btw, I've gone from a liberal federalist to a liberal isolationalist overnight. Now, where's me Punts?)

**Sheridan** · 03/10/2009, 6:13 PM

I still believe in a European confederation based on workers' rights and international solidarity, not one run for the benefit of corporations and the military-industrial complex.

**Mr A** · 03/10/2009, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sheridan

A black day for democracy, and a dangerous one too. A lot of No voters stayed at home because, after what happened last time, they realised their vote for worthless. When there's this much anger against the establishment as a whole out there, and you prevent people from effecting change through democratic and constitutional means, you open Pandora's box.

Um, what? It was a referendum, how is that a bad day for democracy? How is only the pre-guarantees vote democratic but the post-guarantees one isn't?

If anything, I believe the voters were scared into voting no the first time, and because this wasn't allowed to happen to the same extent this time a lot of people on the No side somehow feel that's unfair.

dahamsta- I feel that's a bit unfair but can see what you mean taking that post in isolation. Overall I feel this wasn't even one of the bigger EU treaties, basically just a bit of tidying up and stream-lining and I think I've made that pretty clear. In that context I think my post was a fair summation of what I was always likely to feel after a Yes vote.

**dahamsta** · 03/10/2009, 6:29 PM

Mr A, saying that "sanity has prevailed" is a smart-assed comment, and not a very clever one at that.

I'm not having a debate with you, I'm telling you: don't post that kind of crap in here again. Understand?

**Mr A** · 03/10/2009, 6:32 PM

Fair enough.

**Angus** · 03/10/2009, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mr A

Um, what? It was a referendum, how is that a bad day for democracy? .

2 reasons why today is a steaming example of how we do not live in a democracy.

Firstly, according to the Euro elites and the Prime Minister of the country, this treaty was fundamental to our recovery. He, and all of the corporate types managed to persuade 39% of the electorate to support them (67% win of 58% turnout). So, 60% of the Irish failed to support this.

Yes that includes people who for some daft reason did not vote - but let's acknowledge that only 39% of us voted yes. Yes that is our system but it is not democracy.

Secondly today when Cowan, Gormley et al tippied up at Government buildings to take the lap of honour let us examine:

Cowan Nobody ever went into a ballot box and elected him prime minister. Nobody ever voted for him in the knowdge he was Taoiseach

Gormley Sinn Fein out polled the Greens by 50% in the election yet for some reason he is a powerful cabinet member

Harney Even less people voted for the PD's - and anybody who did voted for them thinking McDowell was the leader

Martin I will give you Martin - at least people voted for him knowing he was cabinet material

Roche Mother of god

So yes that is our system - we do not elect a government - we elect a set of individuals who decide who gets to be in government

Yes it is our system but please don't pretend that it is democracy

**Mr A** · 03/10/2009, 6:42 PM

I don't see how that's really relevant to today though. Unless you make voting compulsory you won't get everyone to vote, and the fact is that a large majority of those who did voted yes. In fact a lot more voted yes this time than voted no last time- so this is actually more democratic on that score.

**Angus** · 03/10/2009, 6:52 PM

I agree with you - maybe I said it badly - I am trying to get to a place where we collectively re-assess what we mean by democracy

It fundamentally galls me that Ireland and the UK have unelected leaders. It galls me that we have said no to Europe twice yet that is taken only as an opening offer. It galls me that the political establishment got 2 NO votes in France and Holland and in order to change the rules they all met in Lisbon, changed the name and therefore created a structure that did not require referenda

All of this was carried out "democratically" based on the rules and systems that we have in place - and todays vote is a resounding result and was carried out legitimately

What I am saying is that "we the people" should not accept the c**p we get from our "leaders", many of whom were not elected to the positions they hold. We need to re-claim the electoral process.

Who elected Pat Cox to anything in the last 15 years ? On the flip side, nobody elected Ganley - but he stood and got a substantial vote - but did not get elected. He did not get elected so he holds no office - that is the way it is supposed to work

Now I am not suggesting that every mid management person in the government architecture needs to be elected - but people with key influence need to be elected - with 2 examples being the President and Foreign Minister of the EU

.....which brings us back to today......

I am not seething at todays result - which is legitimate and resounding - I am seething that the people accept this utterly deformed system of "democracy"

**mypost** · 03/10/2009, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

mypost, talking about yourself in the third person is a first indicator of *.

It was used once in one sentence, that best suited it imo. I won't use it again.

**SMorgan** · 03/10/2009, 7:34 PM

Some of the comments of the victorious Yes side are a bit hard to take.

The same people that were telling us that the only difference between Ireland and Iceland is one letter and that Ireland faced years in the wilderness with massive job loses, if we didn't vote Yes, are now claiming that the reason people now voted Yes was because they were more enlightened this time round and understood the issues.

**Mr A** · 03/10/2009, 7:36 PM

UKIP condemn the poll as 'corrupt' and 'comparable to Zimbabwe or Afghanistan'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...breaking34.htm

**don ramo** · 03/10/2009, 7:46 PM

so where is my new job gonna be so,
how long will it take for these jobs to appear,

**don ramo** · 03/10/2009, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by don ramo

so where is my new job gonna be so,

in sweden, denmark, germany, france and poland

how long will it take for these jobs to appear,

well as soon as pfizers have there plant in spain built, you can head over there,

**don ramo** · 03/10/2009, 7:49 PM

hope everyone has there passports up to date lads, casue the celtic tiger is already a pussy cat, now its on death row,

**John83** · 03/10/2009, 8:12 PM

Originally Posted by Angus

2 reasons why today is a steaming example of how we do not live in a democracy.

Firstly, according to the Euro elites and the Prime Minister of the country, this treaty was fundamental to our recovery. He, and all of the corporate types managed to persuade 39% of the electorate to support them (67% win of 58% turnout). So, 60% of the Irish failed to support this.

Poppycock. 42% of the electorate 'voted' that they didn't care what the outcome was. That the electorate is that disinterested is awful, but it doesn't make the vote any less democratic.

Originally Posted by Angus

It fundamentally galls me that Ireland and the UK have unelected leaders. It galls me that we have said no to Europe twice yet that is taken only as an opening offer.

I kind of agree, but I've never seen a convincing alternative. The US system of the two dominant parties each putting one candidate forward (other candidates are effectively irrelevant) is hardly better.