Quoteanto1208 banned 1 from CA 1 week. mypost, do you want to be next?
That's the "grass is greener" argument.
As ruling governments across the EU, let alone in the EU itself, are unpopular in their own countries, the argument holds no water.
anto1208 banned 1 from CA 1 week. mypost, do you want to be next?
I am a no voter to this but supportive of EU membership - I assume it will be passed
But if it isn't, what then ? Do the EU have the cojones to abandon this ? Is there is a plan for what happens if it fails again ?
My sense is that if it is voted down, it will give the rest of europe, especially those in czech, holland, germany who are skeptical, will then have political cover to drop it all
So, this is the ballgame - it is is passed, europe will rejoice and the skeptics will have no policitcl cover - it it fails, the bandwagon to fail to ratify will keep on a rollin'
DB Cooper is alive !
If Ireland vote "no" then the British will get a referendum on Lisbon. They'll definately vote "no" so it'll be dead in the water,in theory.
It will, and they won't be (as our government is warning about us) "isolated". It will just mean more sulking from Brussels for a while.
Last edited by mypost; 13/07/2009 at 2:49 PM.
Precisely.
My suspicion - and I have no tangible grounds for saying this (other than a sense of human and political nature and reading between the lines) - is that the EU establishment want a United States of Europe,
There are aspects of the LT which are fine and well but my reason for voting No is to slow down what I see as an inexorable drift towards a USE. All of the key aspects of the LT play to that theme and I utterly reject this tosh about "efficiency" - as if anything in the EU every came within a country mile of doing anything efficiently.
This is about power - a more united EU would be, in essence, a new SuperPower and could compete with the US economically and (albeit hihgly unlikely and a hundred years off) militarily.
I support the EU as is but fail to see why we need "more" integration.
DB Cooper is alive !
So are we going to have a third referendum if it passes this time? Just to be super dooper democratic about it?Originally Posted by jebus
Best of three and what not? Obviously having two referendums on any subject in such a short period of time is showing a minimum of respect for your electorate whatever way people chose to spin it.
The ball is round and has many surprises.
I've no bother with any referendums (referenda?) being re-run if less than, say, 70% of the voting populace actually vote. Result could be appealed by 100,000 signatures of a majority of TDs
I love the way No campaigners are saying that its undemocratic to have another democratic vote. Plenty of arguments to not have another vote (time, money etc) but democracy can't be one
Wow, thats wildly speculative
Last edited by dahamsta; 15/07/2009 at 10:04 AM.
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Of course they do, who wouldn't want the successes of the USA up until recently? I don't have a problem with that either. The problem is that the eurocrats want a USE where they have all the power and the states have none. They're power mad and they need to be told to bugger off.
At least not we're having a reasonable debate about reruns, instead of the repetitive tosspot we had last week.
I don't believe reruns are fair or logical within short periods of time, with 5 years reruns being an absolute minimum acceptable for me. 10 years may be too long, perhaps middle ground of 7 or 8 years might be best. Obviously an extenuating circumstances provision should be made, but loopholes would need to be watched for.
I don't believe voter turnout should be a factor, if only because we could end up in an endless loop. If voter turnout is a factor - and it is - make it mandatory; retaining the option to spoil.
I do believe strongly in recall election, and I think it's a shame we don't have it in Ireland; even the UK has provisions for it, although it doesn't seem to be taken advantage of.
adam
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8152099.stm
A vote for Lisbon is a vote for Blair!
A leading authority on League of Ireland football since 2003. You're probably wrong.
Agree - the US, on paper, actually has the best system, with recall powers, state by state elections and referendums, national elections every 2 years and a robust set opf checks and balances.
Unfortunately it has been utterly corrupted by individuals and the duopoly, but on paper their system is as good as it could possibly get. Doesn't work out that way, of course.
Lisbon is a fraud - it is a EU constitution by any other name and while its implementation would be relatively benign in the short term it is fundamentally a path to a USE and for that reason I'm Out (Angus the Dragon)
DB Cooper is alive !
Couldn't agree with you there Angus, apart from recalls I think the US system is a monstrosity. Completely aside from the idiotic punchcards and even more idiotic Windows boxes, the first-past-the-post system is inherently corruptable. (Of course people are corrupt, not systems, but the system makes it easy for them.) PR-STV is simply the best system, on paper and in practice. We just need to enhance it's use with recalls imho.
Eurocorps, made up of soldiers from a number of EU countries, were taking part in a ceremony in Strasbourg on Monday, in order to raise the European flag over the Parliament, followed by the EU's anthem, at the Parliament's first session since the elections.
Looks all innocent, but one of the few changes between the two documents was the idea of dropping all EU symbols, to attempt to protect national identities.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...t-opening.html
What is wrong with European symbols? or the Eurocorps for that matter?
The fact that they annoy the Telegraph and UKIP are a major plus point to me
#NeverStopNotGivingUp
Love the way mypost is using a British newspaper to help highlight how Irish identity should be protected...
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Nothing wrong, so long as I can meet one single person who voted for them.What is wrong with European symbols? or the Eurocorps for that matter?
The fact that they annoy the Telegraph and UKIP are a major plus point to me
I may have said it badly but where I was going that as a system written down on a page, it is close to perfect. Its execution, implementation and reality is utterly corrupt
Last edited by dahamsta; 17/07/2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Merging posts.
DB Cooper is alive !
The UK, as Ireland, is an independent nation. Nothing wrong with them looking to remain that way.
A bit different from an Irish newspaper:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...breaking44.htm
Last edited by mypost; 17/07/2009 at 2:48 PM.
An interesting piece by John Bruton in the IT today: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...250945103.html
#NeverStopNotGivingUp
Sure Bruton is one of the biggest federalists going, he'd murder his own granny for a USE. And that "White Paper" isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Yet again you bandy about opinion as fact.
What on earth is "An independent nation"?! One's man independence was lost with the formation of the EEC whilst to another (me) we'll be no more or less independent pre or post Lisbon.
I'll again make the point that it's interesting the No campaign are being more and more influenced by the UK, where the debate has nothing to do with Lisbon, but everything to do with the whole concept of Europe.
The No campaign have certainly
moved on from the "we're pro-Europe actually" line they peddled last time around.
Wolves in sheeps clothing....
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