AIL:Will it happen?

[micls]

Who are these people??

From what I can make out Drury, Jim Roddy, their backers and the 6 clubs south.

Is it true the FAI own Turners Cross and Terryland Park??

The MFA control Turners cross(long term lease) but dont own it(i think), its complicated but AFAIK it states that an EL(not sure the exact wording) team has to be allowed use of it.

[Lim till i die]

From what I can make out Drury, Jim Roddy, their backers and the 6 clubs south.

Did you ever think you'd see the day when you'd be jumping into bed with the sensible folk who bankroll Drogheda??

The MFA control Turners cross(long term lease) but dont own it(i think), its complicated but AFAIK it states that an EL(not sure the exact wording) team has to be allowed use of it

So Hypothetically speaking would there be anything to stop the FAI turfing City out of the X and installing a new Cork club to run in their national league should the 6 up sticks??

[micls]

Did you ever think you'd see the day when you'd be jumping into bed with the sensible folk who bankroll Drogheda??

We're already in bed with them.....this is just moving bedrooms

Even within the new AIL(if it happens) you'll have people who spend money relatively wisely, on facilities etc, those who are moderate and crazy spenders on wages. A new league wot change any of that imo

So Hypothetically speaking would there be anything to stop the FAI turfing City out of the X and installing a new Cork club to run in their national league should the 6 up sticks??

I dunno. We have a sub-lease, but dunno how many years are on it. But i presume after that lease is up then they could do that if they can get another Cork club willing to enter the national league.

[Lim till i die]

Even within the new AIL(if it happens) you'll have people who spend money relatively wisely, on facilities etc, those who are moderate and crazy spenders on wages. A new league wot change any of that imo

Then what's the point unless it's to facilitate the shower in bold??

I dunno. We have a sub-lease, but dunno how many years are on it. But i presume after that lease is up then they could do that if they can get another Cork club willing to enter the national league

It's an extreme example I know but just kind of using it to emphasise the reality of the "G6's" bargaining power (clumsily I'll admit)

[micls]

Then what's the point unless it's to facilitate the shower in bold??

To facilitate those who want to improve facilities? I would see this as one of the major failings of our league and one of the reasons for poor attendance.

The money being touted as prize money, sponsorship money and money people are willing to invest in a AIL could make a huge difference to facilities.

Even if the league does go down the toilet in 10 years, those who spent wisely will still have the facilities in place.

It's an extreme example I know but just kind of using it to emphasise the reality of the "G6's" bargaining power (clumsily I'll admit)

Tbh I have no clue what the clubs will propose.

But Im working off whether I think it would be good or not if it gets off the ground rather than presuming it will

[DmanDmythDledge]

Yes, next August.

If enough money is involved, all parties (clubs, FAI, IFA) will come to the table for their share of the fortune. UEFA and FIFA will sign off for political reasons ... how would it look for them to stand in the way of what the world will see as a politically significant event.

The FAI have plenty of money- waving a few million at them is pointless.

UEFA will not back this without support from the national associations, and even if that were the case insist on a combined national side.

Well if for example the proposed prize money from the company is true, would the FAI not be able to use the current prize money for the tier below?

At the moment how much prize money are the 'have nots' getting?

The AIL can't go ahead without support from the FAI so the clubs below wouldn't get a chance to win money like that.

http://www.derrycityfc.net/season/07...php?storyid=46

[Lim till i die]

To facilitate those who want to improve facilities? I would see this as one of the major failings of our league and one of the reasons for poor attendance.

See I don't buy this argument for a second.

Why not improve your facilities within the confines of the wage cap structure??

Besides I thought ye were having a stadium built either way??

Similar supposed situation with Bohs and Drogs.

Galways facilities frankly don't need improving

The money being touted as prize money, sponsorship money and money people are willing to invest in a AIL could make a huge difference to facilities.

The money being speculated about isn't huge by any stretch of the imagination at all.

2m for the winners?!?!

Would it build you a decent stand ffs??

Even if the league does go down the toilet in 10 years, those who spent wisely will still have the facilities in place.

And I can guarentee you for every club who spent wisely there will be at least three gone to the wall.

[micls]

See I don't buy this argument for a second.

Why not improve your facilities within the confines of the wage cap structure??

I dont have a problem with a wage cap tbh.

But the 35% left over in the EL would be a lot smaller than the money left over in an AIL if reports are to be believed.

There is simply more money involved.Obviously as well as this people will want to bring in better quality of player, which will hopefully help draw bigger crowds and improve results in Europe.

Besides I thought ye were having a stadium built either way??

Thats what we've been told. But in the end of the day thing gang are an investment company. They want to see return, even if they are(apparently) willing to wait 10-15 years to see it.

An AIL(and the sponsorship,tv, etc it entails) is a more attractive prospect to them. It's one thing building the new stadium, but they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. The club one way or another will have to make the money in the medium term to have made it worth while

Similar supposed situation with Bohs

Far from certain or sorted

Galways facilities frankly don't need improving

As you said above they dont own their own ground. Im sure its something they aspire to one day.

Perhaps an AIL will attract investors that could help them do this

The money being speculated about isn't huge by any stretch of the imagination at all.

2m for the winners?!?!

Would it build you a decent stand ffs??

It's not just about the prizemoney(which will build you 10 times more than you can build now), it's about sponsorship, tv money and investors.

And I can guarentee you for every club who spent wisely there will be at least three gone to the wall.

So you think that if it goes to the wall only 2 EL clubs will survive it(6 going to the wall)? Or am I reading you wrong?

[Lim till i die]

I dont have a problem with a wage cap tbh.

The "G6" do though.

A major problem.

And I genuinely think that's the driving force behind this breakaway. And if my club was one of the clubs pushing it I would be very wary.

But the 35% left over in the EL would be a lot smaller than the money left over in an AIL if reports are to be believed.

There isn't a hope in hell of any AIL having a wage cap.

As for the 35% being bigger that's pure speculation.

There is simply more money involved.

Not enough concrete dosh to warrant such a seismic shift IMO.

Obviously as well as this people will want to bring in better quality of player, which will hopefully help draw bigger crowds and improve results in Europe.

All speculative again.

Besides you're assuming you would have European places.

Not to mention the fact that Europe would be far more easily attainable for a club like Cork under the current arrangement.

Thats what we've been told.

As a Limerick fan I never believe anything I've been told by anyone ever!!

They want to see return

Why buy a football club

An AIL(and the sponsorship,tv, etc it entails) is a more attractive prospect to them.

I honestly hand on heart can't see the huge difference in attractiveness

It's one thing building the new stadium, but they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

I will be astonished if I see a brand new stadium of any kind of large size on Leeside in the next ten years

The club one way or another will have to make the money in the medium term to have made it worth while

And I will be even more astonished if any club in Ireland ever makes enough money in the medium term to justify the building of said large stadium.

It's not just about the prizemoney(which will build you 10 times more than you can build now), it's about sponsorship, tv money and investors.

I genuinely can't see the big attraction.

Honestly, all jokes aside.

Linfield - fair enough (although nowhere near a good enough reason for forseking Shamrock Rovers.

Glentoran/Cliftonville - Meh

The rest - Who gives a $hit!!

So you think that if it goes to the wall only 2 EL clubs will survive it(6 going to the wall)? Or am I reading you wrong

I think there is far more scope for a lot of the until now part-time Nordie clubs to go to wall tbh.

Although having said that, there isn't a club among the "G6" more than a day away from folding if investors decide they want out.

[micls]

As for the 35% being bigger that's pure speculation.

If the prizemoney is bigger and sponsorship is bigger then I dont see how its speculation? I very much doubt they would bother opushing this thing if it would mean less money coming in than is now

Not enough concrete dosh to warrant such a seismic shift IMO.

See thats the thing really. Obviously depending on the conditions of it I dont see it as such a seismic shift, just some smaller clubs being replaced by bigger clubs and more money on offer.

All speculative again.

Of course it is. But Id be fairly confident in saying if the money is bigger, there will be better players.

And better players will win more European games

Besides you're assuming you would have European places.

Of course. Id be surprised if it took off without them though

Not to mention the fact that Europe would be far more easily attainable for a club like Cork under the current arrangement

Perhaps but Id prefer working towards Europe for a few years and then pushing on towards the group stages of Uefa(in a few years after that) than being in Europe every year and being knocked out earlier.

Of course the competition for these places makes it even more interesting still

As a Limerick fan I never believe anything I've been told by anyone ever!!

Im skeptical myself....but hopeful. Simply because Tynan doesnt seem to give a crap what the fans think so Im not sure if he'd bother to lie about it.

I think they expect the stadium to pay for itself eventually but say I know the details behind their motive

Why buy a football club

Tynan had a big long spiel about it.....but in the end it must come down to the fact that they think they can make it work.

I honestly hand on heart can't see the huge difference in attractiveness

To me there is, and obviously to them also. Again the money will be a big issue

I will be astonished if I see a brand new stadium of any kind of large size on Leeside in the next ten years

Its just a case of wait and see really. Il be delighted if it happens but wont be surprised if it doesnt

And I will be even more astonished if any club in Ireland ever makes enough money in the medium term to justify the building of said large stadium.

Drogheda seem to expect the same. We'll see I guess

I genuinely can't see the big attraction.

Honestly, all jokes aside.

Linfield - fair enough (although nowhere near a good enough reason for forseking Shamrock Rovers.

Glentoran/Cliftonville - Meh

The rest - Who gives a $hit!!

I dont think itl be a case of forsaking Rovers. If it goes ahead Id expect them to jump on.

Glentoran/Cliftonville or even Portadown ahead of UCD, Bray and Finn Harps, no offense but yes please.

Its not just the clubs themselves but also the professional aspect of it.

I think there is far more scope for a lot of the until now part-time Nordie clubs to go to wall tbh.

If Im gonna b honest about it I cant say I really care

Although having said that, there isn't a club among the "G6" more than a day away from folding if investors decide they want out.

Overstated I think.

Drogheda-perhaps
Bohs-Dont see how thats true
Galway- Would have to go back part-time but would survive I think
Pats-Survived before him, again maybe have to go part-time
Derry- No investors
Us- Probably second most likely. However we are in the process of setting up a supporters trust with the aim to ensure this doesnt happen. Of course we'd have to go part-time and start from the start again but we'd still be around

[Lim till i die]

If the prizemoney is bigger and sponsorship is bigger then I dont see how its speculation?

Note the if!!

I very much doubt they would bother opushing this thing if it would mean less money coming in than is now

It's being pushed for their own selfish reasons.

Which given the gamble involved don't necessarily tally with the clubs best interests.

Of course it is. But Id be fairly confident in saying if the money is bigger, there will be better players.

It's every bit as likely that players of the same standard will just be paid more.

Kinda like what's happening in the league now.

Perhaps but Id prefer working towards Europe for a few years and then pushing on towards the group stages of Uefa(in a few years after that) than being in Europe every year and being knocked out earlier.

The only way you'll achieve this in the forseeable is through spending money you don't have ala Shels

I think they expect the stadium to pay for itself eventually

How??

Drogheda seem to expect the same. We'll see I guess

And if I had a euro for every Corkie on here who scoffed at Droghedas plans I'd have enough cash to make it a "G7"

I dont think itl be a case of forsaking Rovers. If it goes ahead Id expect them to jump on.

And if they decided they were happy where they are??

Glentoran/Cliftonville or even Portadown ahead of UCD, Bray and Finn Harps, no offense but yes please.

How many more people will these giants pull through the gate??

Factor in increased travel costs and you're talking pretty piddling gains here.

Its not just the clubs themselves but also the professional aspect of it.

What makes the three IL clubs mentioned any more professional then the three LoI clubs??

If Im gonna b honest about it I cant say I really care

I never said you did or indeed should.

Drogheda-perhaps
Bohs-Dont see how thats true
Galway- Would have to go back part-time but would survive I think
Pats-Survived before him, again maybe have to go part-time
Derry- No investors
Us- Probably second most likely. However we are in the process of setting up a supporters trust with the aim to ensure this doesnt happen. Of course we'd have to go part-time and start from the start again but we'd still be around

So maybe I overstated a small bit to prove a point.

But even looking at your own (very optomistic) assessment it's hardly a solid base for a breakaway now is it??

[fanatic]

I cannot see the AIL league happening for a long time. Too many factors with the national sides.

I would welcome the AIL......... but if it went ahead what would happen with the FAI & IFA ?

Would they merge for the AIL and seek recognition from UEFA & FIFA so that europen places can be offered for the new setup ?

If this happened surely they would want 1 national side, therefore also solving the future arguments like darren gibson for UEFA & FIFA

Or would they remain seperate bodies, therefore keeping the 2 national sides, but controlling 2 leagues of no relevance, as the bigger clubs broken off etc..

i can only imagine the argument over where the home games would be played, if the national sides united.

imagine the arguments they already have with building a new stadium in northern ireland, imagine then that no-one played there lol

[Jerry The Saint]

If this happened surely they would want 1 national side

I really don't think so. People have said that there is some rule that would require national teams to merge but I haven't seen any real evidence of this.

There are existing situations where England/Wales; USA/Canada; Australia/New Zealand; Switzerland/Liechtenstein have cross-border leagues and obviously Derry joining the LOI had no impact on the international setup.

[GavinZac]

Ridiculous analogy.

Small, unsuccessful teams are uncompetitive, but they can become competitive by improving their team. In a league set-up in which revenue is distributed only to a small number of clubs (AIL), those teams have less chance of improving their team. In a league set-up in which it is distributed to more clubs, they have a greater chance of improving their team.

wait, why is revenue being shared to a smaller number of clubs in the AIL? if anything, it'd surely be more clubs than at present.

If Limerick never have any ambitions to be full-time, at least let them not begrudge the rest of us a good try at it and hold us back.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I really don't think so. People have said that there is some rule that would require national teams to merge but I haven't seen any real evidence of this.

There are existing situations where England/Wales; USA/Canada; Australia/New Zealand; Switzerland/Liechtenstein have cross-border leagues and obviously Derry joining the LOI had no impact on the international setup.

Most of them are different situations and are only one club/a handful. Welsh teams joined the English football pyramid in the early 1900s, Liechtenstein have no league and Derry joined the LOI because of political trouble/violence or whatever it was.

[osarusan]

I think it is fair to say that basically everybody on here is looking out for their own club first and foremost, as any fan would.

Micls and OneRedArmy have both been honest enough to say that they favour this for selfish reasons, just as I'm against it for selfish reasons.
But the problem I have with the proposed AIL is that, unlike the FAI, which has a duty to treat all clubs fairly, this new system would be run as a business seeking profit, and as such would not be terribly interested in the less powerful/successful clubs.

Any system which would make it harder for clubs to get promoted (north and south "division 1" teams in a playoff for 1 promotion spot - ridiculous), and any system which makes it easier for a relegated team to get promoted again (parachute money - ridiculous) in an unfair system, and clearly not in the best interests of all clubs on the island. OneRedArmy has admitted that the gap between the clubs who "have" and "have not" will get even bigger.

And all this talk that "the extra money will allow us to build better facilities" is nonsense. One of the reasons for the AIL is to avoid the 65% wage cap which the FAI have been trying to implement (with the clubs support, initially). The FAI decided to implement this because too many teams were spending too much on wages, and not enough on facilities. How being in the AIL will suddenly change the clubs attitudes towards facilities is something I can't understand.

What it all boils down to is money. If you're in the top division, it will be great (until you blow all the money, and past experience shows that many clubs will). If not, you have a reduced chance of ever getting there, and an even more reduced chance of being able to stay there.

Which is why a comment like this-

If Limerick never have any ambitions to be full-time, at least let them not begrudge the rest of us a good try at it and hold us back.

portrays a serious lack of understanding (or lack of care) for the clubs who won't make the cut.

[Blanchflower]

How much money is being centrally distributed at present, North and South of the border? Do you even know?

In the context of my own club it is frankly irrelevant. Revenue is self-generated and always has been. Is the IL different?

Whatever about my analogy your knowledge of the EL is clearly lacking.

The point is that clubs break away to form new leagues (e.g. Premiership, SPL) so that they can keep all the TV and sponsorship revenue themselves and not have to distribute it to clubs in lower divisions. That is not good for clubs other than those in the elite and not good for football generally. That is what I assume would happen in an AIL and therefore why it would be worse for the likes of Limerick than the current set-up.

[CollegeTillIDie]

One point about the wage cap issue in relation to an All -Ireland League. At present most clubs in the League of Ireland also employ full time admin staff. The Club promotions officer and various office staff being a case in point. People such as stadium maintenance, ticket sales, commercial office admin etc. Are their wages included in the 65% wage cap or is their wages included in the other 35%? And in an AIL context full-time admin staff would have to be a major requirement. One of Longford Town's difficulties was they did not have ANY full-time admin staff which was one of the reasons they failed to meet the licencing requirements ( in addition to their financial irregularities) which cost them 9 points and ultimately relegated them.

[OneRedArmy]

The point is that clubs break away to form new leagues (e.g. Premiership, SPL) so that they can keep all the TV and sponsorship revenue themselves and not have to distribute it to clubs in lower divisions. That is not good for clubs other than those in the elite and not good for football generally. That is what I assume would happen in an AIL and therefore why it would be worse for the likes of Limerick than the current set-up.

You have skillfully not answered the previously question concerning central revenue distribution.

I will say it again slowly:

In the Eircom League the vast majority of clubs revenue is self-generated by clubs, not centrally distributed. This is because the product isn't attractive enough to TV or large sponsors.

The revenue that would be distributed as part of an AIL is new money to the table that is not available under the current structure, therefore is COMPLETELY ABSURD AND RIDICULOUS to say that clubs will be losing revenue that isn't there at the minute.

If you want to continue the debate stop making ridiculous points, acknowledge you are wrong and then I'll respond.

[Blanchflower]

You have skillfully not answered the previously question concerning central revenue distribution.

I will say it again slowly:

In the Eircom League the vast majority of clubs revenue is self-generated by clubs, not centrally distributed. This is because the product isn't attractive enough to TV or large sponsors.

The revenue that would be distributed as part of an AIL is new money to the table that is not available under the current structure, therefore is COMPLETELY ABSURD AND RIDICULOUS to say that clubs will be losing revenue that isn't there at the minute.

If you want to continue the debate stop making ridiculous points, acknowledge you are wrong and then I'll respond.

Presumably clubs receive money from Eircom (the sponsors) and RTE (for TV coverage). There may be other sponsors, too. Presumably all clubs receive some of this money, including First Division clubs.

In a break-away AIL, sponsorship for the rump league would massively reduce and TV coverage would cease. Therefore those clubs outside the AIL would lose revenue. Therefore it is NOT ridiculous to say that they will lose revenue.

To compound this, the income of the AIL clubs will increase, therefore massively increasing the disparity in income between those in the AIL and those outside. This will make it more difficult, if not impossible, for those outside the AIL to compete.