AIL:Will it happen?

[micls]

And if it doesn't? football clubs being football clubs, expect a lot of ambitious overspending in the expectation of the gravy train rolling into town; and if the league fails, clubs will go to wall, leaving us with two drastically weakened leagues.

A possibility of course. But Im just saying its not necessarily only the sponsorship money that will be involved.

Being brutally honest I can't say I care too muh about any club but City. Of course I want a strong league but only because again that benefits City. Selfish? Maybe. But I dont care how it would affect Limerick, or Athlone or even Drogs or Bohs for that matter......apart from when their success impacts on my club.

I think this would be good for City. I think there are businessmen in place here who would be prudent enough not to let the club go bust, but I also think we badly need the supporters trust that is in the process of being set up. If for some reason, it doesn't work and we end up in a worse position than we are now(e.g. worst case scenario-Investors pull out) then we start again with the trust.

I think it's worth the gamble for us. As it is we need to spend more money than we have coming in to make the club competitive so the same risks apply now as will in an AIL

[OneRedArmy]

Surely all of those things are down to poor management by the clubs, not the way the league is set up?

Why are clubs any more likely to manage themselves better in an AIL than in the Eircom League?

Bigger money generally buys better administrators.

And how will the inclusion of Linfield, Glentoran etc. change this cycle for the majority of Irish clubs? How will this benefit Limerick 37 for example? Because the exclusion from the top division could prove fatal for the clubs left out ?

The First Divisions of the respective leagues will get as much, or as little, exposure as they do now. The only upside is that they have a shot at the bigtime, same as today, except the bigtime may be bigger.

How likely do think it would be that the money wouldn't be entirely spent on wages? Especially as a major driver of all this talk seems to be the 65% wage cap.

If clubs are left to their own devices, then its entirely likely they will spent it on wages. But from what little I have read there seemed to be a focus on infrastructural improvements from those behind the scheme. Again, its not like the FAI are taking infrastructure seriously and as for the wage cap it the EL, I have seen nothing to demonstrate that its anything but a headline grabbing sham that will have more holes in it than a sieve come the end of the season.

[jebus]

The First Divisions of the respective leagues will get as much, or as little, exposure as they do now. The only upside is that they have a shot at the bigtime, same as today, except the bigtime may be bigger.

So we end up with a system like what happens in England, where the promoted teams have little or no chance of competing with the established Premier League clubs due to the difference in the previous year(s) difference in income, and we end up with a few yo-yo clubs going between divisions, a lot of clubs who have little chance of ever getting promoted (parachute payments for the relegated teams) and the same ol' heads competing at the top of the table for years to follow. Great.

[OneRedArmy]

So we end up with a system like what happens in England, where the promoted teams have little or no chance of competing with the established Premier League clubs due to the difference in the previous year(s) difference in income, and we end up with a few yo-yo clubs going between divisions, a lot of clubs who have little chance of ever getting promoted (parachute payments for the relegated teams) and the same ol' heads competing at the top of the table for years to follow. Great.

In fairness, I'd look a bit closer to home for reasons as to why one of the biggest cities in the country can't sustain one senior football side before you try to put all the blame on the system.

[Blanchflower]

Bigger money generally buys better administrators.

Any evidence for this? Are the administrators of Coventry City better than those of Tow Law Town? Are the administrators of Shelbourne better than those of Cobh Ramblers?

The First Divisions of the respective leagues will get as much, or as little, exposure as they do now. The only upside is that they have a shot at the bigtime, same as today, except the bigtime may be bigger.

But their exclusion from the AIL means they don't share financially in the spoils whereas currently they do share financially in the spoils of the Eircome League. Therefore they lose out. Also, they won't get as much exposure in a Southern or Northern First Division as they do currently in the Eircome League and IPL, so you're wrong.

If clubs are left to their own devices, then its entirely likely they will spent it on wages. But from what little I have read there seemed to be a focus on infrastructural improvements from those behind the scheme. Again, its not like the FAI are taking infrastructure seriously and as for the wage cap it the EL, I have seen nothing to demonstrate that its anything but a headline grabbing sham that will have more holes in it than a sieve come the end of the season.

The IPL is introducing club licensing which, I presume, includes criteria regarding infrastructure and club management, etc. This type of thing is not dependent on an AIL.

[Blanchflower]

So we end up with a system like what happens in England, where the promoted teams have little or no chance of competing with the established Premier League clubs due to the difference in the previous year(s) difference in income, and we end up with a few yo-yo clubs going between divisions, a lot of clubs who have little chance of ever getting promoted (parachute payments for the relegated teams) and the same ol' heads competing at the top of the table for years to follow. Great.

That is what will happen.

The problem with football in Europe is that increasing amounts of money are distributed too narrowly, therefore creating a self-perpetuating elite and reducing competition. Yet sport needs competition to thrive. That is why the Americans do what they can to avoid having self-perpetuating elites in their main sports.

By all means generate as much revenue as possible, but it needs to be redistributed more widely so that the sport as a whole benefits, and not just a few clubs.

The same argument applies in NI, ROI and Ireland as a whole as it does in England and, more generally, Europe.

[jebus]

In fairness, I'd look a bit closer to home for reasons as to why one of the biggest cities in the country can't sustain one senior football side before you try to put all the blame on the system.

Yeah it's because of Munster rugby and Fr.Joe Young, what's your point? I used Limerick as an example. So whats the answer to my original question about the G6 trying to model this league on the disasterous Premiership?

[OneRedArmy]

Yeah it's because of Munster rugby and Fr.Joe Young, what's your point? I used Limerick as an example. So whats the answer to my original question about the G6 trying to model this league on the disasterous Premiership?

My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.

As for the "disasterous (sic) Premiership", I suppose its all in the eye of the beholder.

So I suppose in summary I would agree that this does little to benefit the Limericks of the world, but I'm fairly sure that is irrelevant as to whether it succeeds.

Before you get all upset at your club being ignored (which it is) bear in mind I'm not behind the AIL proposals and am only stating reality.

[Blanchflower]

My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.

But your point is unsound.

It will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements.

[Schumi]

My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.

The problem is that based on some of the details leaked, clubs who don't make the cut for the AIL top division (whether that be by footballing merit or DVD presentations) will find it enormously difficult to ever break in and the relegated team will be hot favourites for promotion again.

[OneRedArmy]

But their exclusion from the AIL means they don't share financially in the spoils whereas currently they do share financially in the spoils of the Eircome League. Therefore they lose out. Also, they won't get as much exposure in a Southern or Northern First Division as they do currently in the Eircome League and IPL, so you're wrong..

Lower clubs can benefit from transfer fees, but yes, it will increase the inequality.

The IPL is introducing club licensing which, I presume, includes criteria regarding infrastructure and club management, etc. This type of thing is not dependent on an AIL.

Ah yes, I remember when the EL introduced licensing. You should do a bit of research on recent EL history before you try to speak authoritatively.

Infrastructure requirements are not dependent on an AIL but are dependent on cash. Which neither League currently has.

[OneRedArmy]

But your point is unsound.

It will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements.

Absolutely.

The problem is that based on some of the details leaked, clubs who don't make the cut for the AIL top division (whether that be by footballing merit or DVD presentations) will find it enormously difficult to ever break in and the relegated team will be hot favourites for promotion again.

Ditto.

As one of the Cork lads said above, I care about my own club above all else, and the wider League only to the extent in affects my club.

At the minute Derry are in the plans and there appears to be a large upside potential, ergo, I'm tentatively supporting them.

If I supported a club on the outside I wouldn't be particularly happy. But since when did you have to be equitable and fair when supporting a football team?!

[Blanchflower]

Absolutely.

So you concede that you're contradicting yourself?

First you say -
My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.


Then you agree absolutely that -
It will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements.

[Blanchflower]

But since when did you have to be equitable and fair when supporting a football team?!

As I said above, sport needs competition to maintain its appeal. For there to be competition there - broadly - needs to be equity and fairness (which, AFAI understand are the same thing).

By increasing inequality, you reduce competition and, in the long term, will reduce the appeal of the product.

[OneRedArmy]

So you concede that you're contradicting yourself?

First you say -
My point is that the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched.


Then you agree absolutely that -
It will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements.

No. They are unable to compete at the top level under either structure.

The magnitude of their uncompetitiveness is therefore irrelevant.

As I said above, sport needs competition to maintain its appeal. For there to be competition there - broadly - needs to be equity and fairness (which, AFAI understand are the same thing).

By increasing inequality, you reduce competition and, in the long term, will reduce the appeal of the product

How far does the equity and fairness need to go?! How many clubs have broken into the top few in the IL recently?

I rest my case.

[Blanchflower]

No. They are unable to compete at the top level under either structure.

The magnitude of their uncompetitiveness is therefore irrelevant.

You said "the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched" - i.e. you were talking about the future and not just the present.

Since you absolutely agree that it "will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements, logically you concede that it will be easier for Limerick et al to compete in the absence of an AIL. Therefore the problems of Limerick will not be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched: their problems will be worse if an AIL is launched.

[Blanchflower]

How far does the equity and fairness need to go?! How many clubs have broken into the top few in the IL recently?

How recent?

In the last 2-3 years, one club has most definitely broken in: Cliftonville.

In the last 10-12 years, there was Crusaders and Portadown.

Before that: Coleraine, Bangor, Glenavon.


The reason, though, that Glentoran and Linfield dominate NI football is because they have considerably larger support than any other clubs and therefore more revenue (and in relation to Linfield they also have IFA income from hosting NI matches). It is not because league income is not shared with the other clubs, which is what would happen in an AIL.

[Schumi]

But since when did you have to be equitable and fair when supporting a football team?!

Never obviously, but one would hope that governing bodies would think differently.

[OneRedArmy]

You said "the problems that Limerick and similar clubs have had sustaining football will be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched" - i.e. you were talking about the future and not just the present.

Since you absolutely agree that it "will be more difficult for Limerick and other clubs excluded from the AIL (a) to achieve and (b) to sustain top level football than it is under the current arrangements, logically you concede that it will be easier for Limerick et al to compete in the absence of an AIL. Therefore the problems of Limerick will not be the same regardless of whether or not an AIL is launched: their problems will be worse if an AIL is launched.

Ok, my final post on this, as I'm boring myself (which given the size of my ego takes some doing) and in severe danger of taking up DCFCsteve's mantle.

Small, unsuccessful teams will have the same core issue (uncompetitiveness). Take a high jumping analogy. Say my pb is 1 metre, and I'm trying to qualify for the Olympics which has a qualifying height of say 2m. If this increases to 2.20m, then its not the increase in qualifying height that caused me not to go to the Olympics.

Where you the one who re-arranged the deckchairs on the Titantic as a matter of interest?

[Blanchflower]

Ok, my final post on this, as I'm boring myself (which given the size of my ego takes some doing) and in severe danger of taking up DCFCsteve's mantle.

Small, unsuccessful teams will have the same core issue (uncompetitiveness). Take a high jumping analogy. Say my pb is 1 metre, and I'm trying to qualify for the Olympics which has a qualifying height of say 2m. If this increases to 2.20m, then its not the increase in qualifying height that caused me not to go to the Olympics.

Ridiculous analogy.

Small, unsuccessful teams are uncompetitive, but they can become competitive by improving their team. In a league set-up in which revenue is distributed only to a small number of clubs (AIL), those teams have less chance of improving their team. In a league set-up in which it is distributed to more clubs, they have a greater chance of improving their team.