Hey, at least we've heard something concrete of its conclusions!Originally Posted by Bald Student
Only heard about it at lunch time today - was on the radio news, and someone was already laying into it for being wide of the mark. I think the report suggested more games against tougher opposition to keep the team on its toes, while the person talking about the report said this was silly as you can't increase the number of games for rugby teams like you can with football teams, as rugby is much more physically demanding. As you well know, I have no time for rugby at all, so won't claim to be anything other than ignorant of it; does that make sense/is that what's being said?
The thread here also noted that it seemed to be fairly obvious in its conclusions and lacking any real insight. That's all I'm going on for the rugby report; I know the eL one was utterly useless.
In fairness, I think the info about Mooney looking for Genesis was come across completely independently (as in, I think Emmet was on to Rice, who mentioned it in passing). If it was his reply in the interview, then I'd be cynical, but less so when the info is third hand like this. (Note "less so" still implies some cynicism!!)
Wasn't there a row recently between the SFAI (schools' body) and the FAI? What was that about?
I am no apologist for the FAI but certain sections of the Irish media love to bash the FAI with complete lack of constructive criticism.
Had the displeasure of reading the Evening Herald tonight & particularly pointless criticism by Hyland. For some reason the FAI get criticised for unknown cost over runs on the new Lansdowne put no mention of the IRFU.
To put your troubled mind at rest, no I don't work for the FAI nor am I an official senior or otherwise, no I am not an international player and no I am not a liar and no I have not read the full report.
However, the main recommendations of that report have been published and to the best of my knowledge no one who has had access to the full report has ever challenged those published recommendations as not being accurate.
I assume you have had access to the full report, otherwise you are hardly in a position to be calling me or anyone else a liar.
We do know that in respect of the manangement structure of the FAI, the Genesis recommendations (as published and unchallenged) have been implemented. They were agreed at the FAI's 2003 AGM and that is a matter of record. Whether the report was good or bad is a matter of opinion for those that had access to it but the full FAI Council certainly must have agreed the recommendations were good for Irish footbal, otherwise they would have hardly voted to implement them.
Personally, I think that grass roots soccer in Ireland generally is in the best shape it has ever been, some on here agree with that and others don't, that what opinions are all about.
I am not sure what you consider would be something tangible to back that up but I would think that initiatves like;
- the Technical Development plan
- the Emerging Talent programme
- Football for all initiative
- Summer Soccer Schools
- the Buntus programme
- the Development programme for the womens game
- the Referees Development programme
- the Coach Education programme
- the Intercultural plan
- the Regional Development Officers programme
are all good examples. If that sounds like a string of sound bytes then so be it.
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
No more than the soccer one. The Genesis people gave a presentation to the IRFU board who then told us what was said. The information is coming to us third hand so you shouldn't be surprised that it contains no controversial conclusions. The IRFU even declined receiving a paper copy of the report to ensure that no evidence of the report remains, other than what they tell us happened.
What associations exactly do you speak of? Do you have any first hand involvement in any of the clubs or associations that you can back up your point with? I hope your not believing everything you're reading in the Evening Hearld now?
Im aware that there are 7 clubs in Dublin who have a grievance and they dont like the way they were treated by the SFAI but theres nothing new there. That kind of political nonsence has been going on for years and not just in the FAI. (Personally I believe its about power more than football but thats another days work)
Last edited by blobbyblob; 19/12/2007 at 12:01 PM.
Who is this guy, Trapper Tony?
Fair enough. Do you want to try get a copy for STIG next year?
No-one has ever challenged the report? Who do you expect to challenge it? "Excuse me, but I believe my job/my best mate's job ought to be downsized according to the Genesis Report"? "Excuse me John, but you shouldn't in your position according to Genesis?" The media? They didn't challenge the flagrant problems with the eL report; they're hardly going to go to the trouble of finding and then reading the original report to tell us whether it was implemented or not. No-one else has access to the report.
The only people who have said that Genesis was implemented are (a) the FAI and (b) Genesis, two organisations whose reputations have been shot to ribbons in recent times.
What were the main recommendations of the report? Only one I remember is ensuring a new CEO was hired from the outside. Didn't happen (althoguh we had a set of mock interviews to give it that appearance...)
Have you given any consideration as to whether Genesis should have been implemented? Or are you blindly assuming it was all good? Again, based on their eL report, that's a very dangerous assumption.
No; I can not see something and call you a liar for saying you've seen it. As it turns out, you've said you haven't seen it, in which case, I don't need to call you a liar. But I can (and will) call you ignorant for commenting on something you've not seen, when all indications are that it's quite possibly not as you believe it to be.
You're being very very naive...
I tried yesterday.Fair enough. Do you want to try get a copy for STIG next year?
Dear John,
The report was delivered to the committee last night. The report will not be published as much of the content is confidential as the information was provided to Genesis under strict confidentiality by the players, staff and management. However, the main findings have been made public in the statement released last night.
Regards,
You can't spell failure without FAI
that is typical hyland drivel. what substance did he have to his scrawl??
there is no mention of the project going over budget anywhere else and if it was then surely some proper journalists who actually bother to investigate these things would have got wind of it?
Genesis recommended the Board of Management be reduced from 23 to 10 and that a number of external professionals were recruited to replace some senior personnel who has held posts having been elected through committees.
This recommendation was adopted by the full council and implemented. The BoM now consists of 10. Pat Costello, Declan Conroy and Tadgh O'Halloran were brought in from outside the FAI.
If it was a report commissioned by the FAI why should anyone outside the FAI have access to it?
It would be reasonable to assume the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism at the time, John O’Donoghue, who had warned the FAI to get their house in order or risk losing up to €2 million in funding, was satisfied that the recommendations of the Genesis Report were being implemented, otherwise the Govt. would hardly have continued funding FAI projects.
The Genesis report was delivered towards the end of 2002, The first CEO was appointed in 2003, Fran Rooney, remember him? Did he not come in from outside?
Assume from that remark you consider yourself ignorant as well for commenting on something you also have not seen!
What a crass notion that if someone comments on something they have not seen, they are ignorant
Your opinion, not one that I have much time for, but if I am, I can live with it.
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
Wasn't there an article in STIG about this?
The Mystery of the Disappearing Genesis Report
The Story of STIG’s attempts to get a copy of the first Genesis Report
Before the start of this season I was writing an article for STIG and needed to check something from the first Genesis Report. I don’t have a copy of the report so I made a freedom of information request to the Dept. of Sport which I sent off at the start of February, in plenty of time to be ready for our first home game. Two weeks later the Dept. got back to me to say that the FOI request was unnecessary as the report is freely available from the FAI and the Dept. had forwarded on my request.
I hadn’t heard anything from the FAI two weeks later. It was the start of March and my print deadline was approaching so I sent an email to the person in Merrion Square who was dealing with it. I heard nothing from her so I decided to get back in touch with the Dept. In our previous correspondence, the Dept. hadn’t answered my FOI request directly so I sent the following email:
“I’ve not heard anything back from the FAI about this. Do you mind if I repeat my earlier question, would it be available from you if I made an FOI request?
Thanks again,
John”
to which the Dept. replied:
“John
I have just spoken to [FAI employee] who informed me that she thought it had been sent to you. She will follow it up for you now.
Regards”
This was a bit odd as the FAI didn’t have my address at the time so couldn’t have sent me the report. I waited a week for the FAI to follow up with me and, having heard nothing, I wrote to them to ask if there was any progress. I received the reply;
“Hi John,
Yes I had replied to you to say that I was just waiting for some clean copies to come in from the stores, they should have been here yesterday, I will give you a call as soon as one arrives.”
Again, I thought this a little odd as the FAI employee didn’t have my phone number to call me but I gave her my address so as she could send me out the report. This was on 12th March.
Having heard nothing for a month I emailed the FAI again on 17th April. After another month I had received no response so I emailed the Dept. of Sport on 10th May;
“I never received that report from the FAI and they have not answered the last few e-mails I've sent them about it.
Do you mind if I repeat my earlier question, would the report be available from your department under a freedom of information request (or by any other method)? I would appreciate if you could answer this question directly as I have gotten the impression that the FAI is avoiding sending me out the report.
Thanks and sorry for having to trouble you again,
John”
I received the response the following day;
"John, I have just spoken to [the same FAI employee] in the FAI and she has informed me that the Genesis Report was sent out to you. She is to email you to check if the address she used was correct. I have checked with our Sports Unit and as it's an FAI Report it would not be available from this Department under Freedom of Information. However it should be available from the FAI. It would appear it got lost in the post. If you wish to contact the FAI by telephone their number is 01 XXXXXXX."
That was five months ago and I have not yet heard back from the FAI about this. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the FAI wants to give the impression that the Genesis Report is a publicly available document but at the same time, they don’t seem to want to hand out copies. Every request I made for the document was ignored and whenever the Dept. of Sport made the request on my behalf an excuse was given as to why I hadn’t received it.
If this document is forming the basis of the development and governance of the game I would expect it to be available to any member of the ‘family of football’. Firstly because it’s an important document in its own right and secondly because keeping it confidential gives the impression that something is being hidden, particularly when the FAI is going to some trouble to hide the fact that it is being kept confidential.
I have to stay open to the possibility that this is all one big misunderstanding resulting from ten or so separate pieces of communication between me and the FAI falling into a big black hole but that seems unlikely. I have never had problems with my email and I have been living at the same address for over 20 years without having any problems with my post.
Finally, I’m still looking for a copy of the report, despite having missed my deadline by about 7 months and counting. If anyone has a copy feel free to let one of us know.
There was an article on implementing Genesis in yesterday's Examiner:
19 December 2007
Putting Genesis changes to work a work in progress for FAI
By Liam Mackey, Soccer correspondent
IT WAS the Bible rewritten: from revelation to Genesis, rather than the other way around.
The revelation was the shock of Saipan and Roy Keane’s withering criticism of the organisation — or lack of it — surrounding the senior international team’s preparations for the 2002 World Cup. Genesis was the name of the management consultancy group whose eponymous report into the fiasco went way beyond the still fresh controversy to recommend sweeping changes in the FAI.
Five years on, most of those recommendations have been implemented but the journey from there to here has not been without its bumpy passages.
The Genesis Report was particularly critical of the Association’s structures and called for a new “culture of professionalism”.
To help achieve that, it recommended a streamlining of the management structure as well as a number of key senior professional appointments. An FAI steering committee was established to oversee the implementation of Genesis and by the time of the Association’s AGM the following year, the FAI Council was able to rubberstamp a reduction in the Board of Management from 23 members to 10. But the appointment of senior executives — an urgent target of the report — proved more problematic.
After the chaos and controversy surrounding the departure of CEO Fran Rooney in November of 2004, Sports Council funding was temporarily withheld and FAI officials were called in by then Sports Minister John O’Donoghue and given a severe dressing down. O’Donoghue reaffirmed his backing for the reforms set out in Genesis, appointed his own watchdog on the joint Irish Sports Council/FAI Liason Group overseeing the process and, as an official Department statement put it, told the Merrion Square delegation that “the continuation of organisational turbulence within the FAI was a matter of serious concern to him and the Government.”
The FAI got the message and by the time Delaney was finally installed as a permanent chief executive in March 2005, good relations with the Government had been restored. And when Mark O’ Leary was appointed Financial Director the following June, John O’Donoghue welcomed the appointment, the Irish Sports Council recognised that “significant efforts and advances” had been made and the FAI even received a thumbs-up from the authors of the report itself.
Said Genesis CEO Alistair Gray: “It is clear that the need for transformation of the FAI has been accepted and acted upon. Significantly, the culture of discipline, lacking in 2002, is now clearly evident and in place, together with a new, more professional ethos.”
But Genesis remains a work in progress.
“We’re still implementing it,” says an FAI source. “They recommended a Director Of International Performance and that position has still to be filled. We’ve advertised for it and we have a London-based sports recruiting company working on it. That person’s role will be to work with the underage managers in terms of improving the quality and quantity of the elite players coming through the system. It’s all about producing players which, hopefully, the senior manager will be able to pick from. In terms of implementing Genesis, the Director of International Performance would probably be the last piece of the jigsaw.”
And Genesis haven’t gone away, they’ve been back since to deliver a sobering indictment of the eircom League, as a result of which major and often controversial changes continue to be implemented in the running of domestic football, with more to follow. Currently, Genesis are engaged in a review of the amateur game and in the near future will turn their attention to schoolboy football.
It all began, as the rugby inquest has now begun, with a World Cup appearance which became mired in acrimony — although it’s worth remembering that the soccer players faired better than their rugby counterparts. For the FAI, it was a chance to break with the past but, after the crushing setback of Steve Staunton’s reign and the controversy surrounding the search for his successor, it’s questions about the future which concern people now.
Stutts, thanks for bringing this to the table.
No doubt, Pineapple Stu will be on soon telling us it all lies and that Liam Mackey is liar or at least ignorant for commenting on something he never read.
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
Contrast this with the claim that they've lost all their copies, even the electronic ones, and you get an idea of what some of us have run up against.
Superhoops, how does Liam Mackey know what's been implemented? I'd love to know. In fact, I'm going to ask, because if he has a copy of the report, then fair dues, but I'll bet he doesn't, and this is going on an FAI press release, or a quiet chat with an FAI official - either way, unquestioned reporting of the FAI's version of the truth.
You can't spell failure without FAI
Fran & the FAI: a marriage made in hell
Conor Keane 8th November 2004
Football Association of Ireland Chief Executive Fran Rooney resigns after weeks of infighting and acrimony
“The FAI has an honourable past, is experiencing a confused present and faces an uncertain future. If the Association is to achieve credibility as a competent, imaginative and professional governing body for Irish soccer, it needs to press ahead with a major overhaul of its decision-making structures and administration.”
Sound familiar? You’d be forgiven for thinking it’s a quote straight out of Genesis. Sadly, no. In 1996, following the “Merriongate” crisis over ticket purchasing, management consultants Ray Cass carried out an investigation into the operations of the Association. Cass criticised the FAI for its “lack of vision, direction and planning, its fragmented and indecisive structures and its marked reluctance to consider necessary change.” The blueprint, uncannily similar in content to Genesis, outlined just how the FAI could, and needed to, implement reform so as to become a competent, competitive body. Yet the people entrusted to implement these changes were the very ones cited in Genesis six years later.
The Saipan debacle took its pound of flesh. The nation was divided. Roy Keane sacrificed a place in the World Cup finals. Mick McCarthy fell on his sword after a pretty decent spell in charge of the national team. So just how was it possible that, bar general secretary Brendan Menton’s decision to step aside from his £150,000-a-year job (to take up other duties within the FAI), not one of the officers in Merrion Square initially felt the Genesis report warranted resignation? How did the game’s incompetent administrators avoid the axe?
The simple answer is that they control, regulate and discipline themselves. They play the game patiently, politically. It can be a long, 20-year journey to the illustrious ranks of the FAI senior council.
Upon publication of Genesis the report was welcomed in general terms by most of the FAI. What some of them refused to accept, though, was the nitty-gritty. When Milo Corcoran spoke in Athens in November 2002 about the association’s enthusiasm to implement the report over a period of five years, it startled FAI Treasurer John Delaney. He had been talking about getting much of Genesis done in 12 months, knowing too well the fate of those reformers in the past who had stalled for consultation after consultation and watched their modernisation get bogged down, as the Hollywood saying goes, in “development hell”.
“It seems to me,” Saint Patrick’s Athletic chairman and committed reformer Andy O’Callaghan said at the time, “that some of the forces lined up on this are the forces that are against Genesis. That is a perception I and others would have.”
The Genesis report recommended five senior professional appointments to be made to manage the FAI – a chief executive, a director of finance, and a director of communications, director of performance and director of football operations. When he took the chief executive’s role, Fran Rooney was hailed as the business-savvy entrepreneur who would turn the association round. But in the FAI change comes with a walking stick. The programme of reform did indeed get off to a good start when a number of senior personnel were replaced and Brian Kerr was appointed as manager, but the FAI didn’t take steps to address long-term reform. The bickering that was a feature under the old regime returned in force and the time scale of key reforms was allowed to slip. The appointment of a Chief Executive officer was supposed to have taken place in the first 3 months of the publication of the report in the summer of 2002. Rooney wasn’t given the job until June 2003.
The key thing for Rooney was getting the senior management in place. Yet his determination to have the positions filled met with fierce resistance from the board of the FAI. Of particular concern was the fact that no moves were made to appoint a director of performance who would liaise with the senior international team manager. That was the most important missing ingredient when Keane’s relationship with Mick McCarthy soured in Saipan.
His bid to revolutionise the administrative structures governing Irish soccer by bringing the previously stand-alone eircom league under the administrative wing of the FAI led to a hostile reaction from the league’s two most powerful officials. The eircom League at the time was receiving little or no investment and Rooney’s efforts were a genuine attempt to put in place structures to make the league a viable entity in the future.
Yet despite this, league chairman Brendan Dillon and general manager Tommy Allen resigned, with the former insisting that he would never again work with the
FAI as long as Rooney and Treasurer John Delaney were involved. The league was their route to the senior council and Rooney’s proposals jeopardized this.
Rooney’s strength of character to make decisions and face up to the guys who had presided over years of mediocrity in the FAI made him many enemies within its ranks. His resignation last Wednesday, after a long and protracted offensive against him, was the inevitable outcome of this episode of the Genesis war. The politics of Merrion Square were foreign to him as an outsider to the administrative side of football (Rooney once managed Ireland’s women footballers). By taking on the men in charge he was taking on men who knew how to fight and knew the ground they were fighting on.
Despite his faults, and he had many, Rooney tried to bring some structure to an organisation where, according to the Genesis report, there was “no culture of discipline” in FAI management, and basic management techniques were non existent. “The present structure, which includes voluntary leadership and professional management, is incompatible,” it said. “Sweeping change” was what was recommended, was what Rooney was mandated to bring.
Liam Brady said on Tuesday night: “the suits will keep their suits”. And so they have. On Thursday the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, John O’Donoghue warned the FAI to get their house in order or risk losing up to €2 million in funding. It may just be the only way to get them to allow their next chief executive to implement the changes that are long overdue.
Here's the take on that on foot.ieIndo: 11/11/04
THE FAI will decide today if it is going to go against the Government's wishes and appoint an interim chief executive for an 18-month period.
The association's Board of Management and National Council will hold back-to-back meetings at Citywest this afternoon to discuss how they should proceed in the wake of Fran Rooney's resignation last week.
President Milo Corcoran indicated last night that there will be a proposal on the table to appoint Honorary Treasurer John Delaney as an interim chief executive for a period of 18 months.
"We will advertise the post of Chief Executive in a year's time because at the moment there is a need to stabilise the association by appointing an interim Chief Executive. As far as I, and the people I have sounded out, are concerned John Delaney is the man to fill that position," said Corcoran.
But while Delaney is a shoo-in as interim Chief Executive there is likely to be some heated debate at both meetings over the length of time he will be in place for.
Delaney is believed to be only interested in the position if it is for an 18-month period but some directors and council members are understandably wary about going against the Government's wishes.
Today is D-Day (Delaney Day?). Today is the day that representatives of the clubs (and their fans!) will decide if it is time for a fresh start or to continue like lemmings and support Delaney. The arrogance of this guy is amazing. No doubt the Board of Management will recommend Delaney's appointment. but hopefully, common sense prevails among the National Council and the future of Irish football is put before the whims of certain individuals.
If the Government's wishes are ignored we must hope John O'Donoghue will be firm and take the appropriate action. If the proposal to install Delaney for 18 months is defeated, then the Board of Management should do the honourable thing and resign en bloc.
What is needed is a clear outcome, but I fear what will emerge will be a fudge, something at which the FAI have traditionally excelled.
Examiner: Genesis ‘will go ahead’ despite Rooney exit
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...y168621025.asp
Irish Emigrant
http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?i...rticleID=37469
The FAI board met on Thursday and ignored the Government's wishes that it implement the Genesis Report, by bringing in fresh blood at the top, and proceeded to ask treasurer John Delaney to take over the CEO position on an interim basis. The proposal went to a meeting of the full council and was approved unanimously - although it was debated for 90 minutes. Delaney wanted time to think it over, and may be still thinking, but Minister for Sport John O'Donoghue stepped in and told the FAI that under the circumstances he would have no further discussions with the association and it would not be receiving any further Government funds. By Sunday the FAI had issued a statement saying that it would advertise the CEO and Finance Director positions before the end of the year. This change of heart was welcomed by the Minister.
You can't spell failure without FAI
What about 'Genesis CEO Alistair Gray: “It is clear that the need for transformation of the FAI has been accepted and acted upon. Significantly, the culture of discipline, lacking in 2002, is now clearly evident and in place, together with a new, more professional ethos.” ?
Why would Alistair Gray go on record if what he was saying was blatanly untrue? I am sure Gray is more concerned about the credibility and reputation of Genesis as an organisation than he is about the FAI. Why would he risk that by making false claims?
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
Because he was being paid by the FAI to say it?
Why would you pay a consultant to come in to say things that were not true if no one was going to believe what was being said anyway? Doesn't make sense!
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
Interesting. The IRFU seem like a fairly good organisation now. They've obviously gotten a very good report and are going to implement it. Anyone who questions the report is wrong.
But a lot of people do believe him. For example, look at the number of people who believe that the Genesis Report was implemented without any of them having read it.Why would you pay a consultant to come in to say things that were not true if no one was going to believe what was being said anyway? Doesn't make sense!
Getting a consultant in to say things you want said is a reasonably common tactic. Businesses, the Government and other sporting organisations do it all the time.
I don't know if Mackey has read it or not. I know you haven't (because you said so), so I know it's ignorant of you to say it's been implemented. i at no stage called you a liar, so that point is irrelevant.Stutts, thanks for bringing this to the table.
No doubt, Pineapple Stu will be on soon telling us it all lies and that Liam Mackey is liar or at least ignorant for commenting on something he never read.
You're the one suggesting the FAI are now a decent organisation because of Genesis. I haven't given my opinion on the FAI. I've commented on the Genesis Report I have seen, and am poking at your assumption that the initial Genesis Report has been implemented and is good. I'm not commenting on something I haven't seen.
You think it's crass to assume that Genesis is all good, without knowing what it says? Fair enough.What a crass notion that if someone comments on something they have not seen, they are ignorant
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