2day FM + Bertie

[dcfcsteve]

What would you do — honest question — if a Mayo team entered the league?

I've always wondered that about people down the country. Not trying to be smart at all.

Sort of like when Donegal Celtic got back up and running in Belfast. Did that split the Cliftonville support to any extent, does anybody know? As far as I can gather Cliftonville became the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist' team by default. (Like Bohs becoming the Northside kingpins after Drumcondra's demise, I suppose.)

Donegal Celtic are a west Belfast team. And a poor one with limited history, no fans and a rubbish ground at that.

Cliftonville are a North Belfast team, and the oldest in Irish football. Therefore, why would they shed fans to the above ? Did Pats shed fans to Dublin City when they relaunched themselves in Tolka ?

As for the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist team' bit. Those who are into football primarily through reasons of politics tend not to give a fcuk about the Irish League. They have Glasgow Celtic to help them live-out their sectarian fantasies....

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of a body of Nationalist football supporters in belfast anyway, eager to switch allegiance at the appearance of a team with a shilelaigh on its badge or something else more uber-Gaelic than they've had to settle with before. I can only imagine its from naive conjecture.

[Clifford]

Did anyone listen to Bertie? What did he come up with?

[Réiteoir]

Ciaran and a few others in here remind me of that character played by John Thompson in the Fast Show a few years back - Roger, the Nouveau Football Fan

He was a middle-class football fan, whose every utterance betrayed the faddish nature of his devotion.

“I used to support Manchester United,” he tells those in the vicinity of his recently acquired seat at Highbury, “but then you had to support them where I came from in, er, Hampstead.”

When United failed to win the league, he switched to Blackburn Rovers and he is “thinking of giving Newcastle Athletic a go”. But for now, he tells his appalled audience, “I’m a true blue Gunner Gooner - bang!”

Then, as soon as the first opposition goal goes in, he leaves. “Soccer!” he shouts, packing his picnic hamper away.

That sums up the barstooler and the foreign club dick-riders perfectly.

[ramsfan]

I think there are two separate issues here.

First, Bertie, as a citizen, is entitled to support whoever he wants. And he's just as open to criticism for that choice as anybody else is. As a citizen, I'd much rather he supported his local side or closest eL side rather than a foreign team, just like I'd rather everybody did.

Secondly, a Taoiseach is aware that basically everything he says and does will be scrutinised. That comes with the territory of being Taoiseach. The eL, like it or not (and some posting here clearly don't), is the national league, and has been for many, many years. It is a part of our history, our culture, our tradition, and our identity. And these are things that a Taoiseach should be trying to promote, not ignore.

excellent post hit the nail on the head

[dcfcsteve]

the biggest turn off in relation to the Eircom League is the self absorb and obnoxious fans. "Our League is great and anyone that watches English soccer is evil"

So THAT'S what's keeping the otherwise keen hordes of band-wagion jumping big-game hunting Premiersh!t worshipping goons away from Irish football...!

Thanks Wookie. If only we'd known before that it's us who're in the wrong, and not them.....

[John83]

...Like many others on here I intensely dislike the garden variety Irish football consumer who has the footballing alligience of an Italian tank commander...

I suspect the footballing alligence of the average Italian tank commander tends rather more towards Milan, Juve, Roma and their ilk than clubs located in London and north-east England.

[John83]

I agree, in theory, with the idea that we as Irish men/women should be supporting a local team. However, the way you would usually begin to support a local team ie by going along with your pals, father, grandfather etc., has not been the case for a large majority of people in this country. I began supporting Spurs in 1986 when my da brought me along to my first game whilst over visiting my gran for Christmas in London. I have supported them ever since though for me the love of the national team supercedes this.

When Rovers played for a while in the RDS, on my bus route, I went along for a bit with the brother, but I never developed an affinity with the club nor the LOI. I do respect fans of the LOI and I have been glad of late to see the progress being made both in the calibre of player on show and the end 'product'. I don't subscribe to the notion that you have to attend LOI football regularly to fully understand the game and feel that the attitude towards 'barstoolers' is counter-productive.

Live and let live I say, and I hope the domestic game continues to thrive. Those pointing to the youth support are correct as they are fans of the future. As any football fan knows, you can't change your club once your hooked.

Well, most people anyway.

Nice post.

Your point about the lack of a tradition here hurting the league is interesting, but it seems to me that as crowds were much higher in the past (pre-TV), so there are many older people out there who were taken by their dads, and didn't carry it on.

[osarusan]

it seems to me that as crowds were much higher in the past (pre-TV), so there are many older people out there who were taken by their dads, and didn't carry it on.

Agreed.

And, Docboy (good, honest post, btw), while it was true in your case, I'm guessing that only a very small percentage of people who now support foreign clubs were first introduced to those clubs by way of a live game.

The arguement that "there was nobody to take me" didn't stop many from finding a foreign club to support.

[Redie]

For what it's worth below is a copy of an email I sent to Today FM Sports department this afternoon............

The attitude of people towards Irish Soccer has always confounded me and it continues to do so even after all these years. I have always felt that Today FM in general and your Premier League Live programme in particular epitomises the pathetic obsession with a second rate foreign league that prevails in this country. It is a shallow fixation that dominates the sporting media in Ireland and it is probably not matched in any other country in the world. What makes it more upsetting is that it is totally at the expense of Irish football which is to all intents and purposes ignored. This mania reached new depths last Saturday when you interviewed Bertie Ahern on your programme and to hear the leader of our nation waffling on about his life long love for three British clubs – Man Utd, Celtic and wait for it, Hull City – sent me running for the sick bucket. I repeat what other country would have it’s Prime Minister actively promoting the exodus of millions of euro every year from his country’s economy to fund a league that is already vulgarly awash with money. I do enjoy your programme and listen to it whenever is convenient and it is undoubtedly a very professional production but as an Irish football supporter it continually hurts me that the only time Irish soccer gets a mention is when there is an opportunity to slag it off. Your programme lasts for four hours and it is unbelievable that you cannot dedicate a five or ten minute slot to Irish soccer, if you at least read out the weekend fixtures during the programme it would be something but I suppose it would be asking too much for Today FM and Bertie Ahern to give Irish football a DIG OUT.

[jbyrne]

Your programme lasts for four hours and it is unbelievable that you cannot dedicate a five or ten minute slot to Irish soccer, if you at least read out the weekend fixtures during the programme it would be something but I suppose it would be asking too much for Today FM and Bertie Ahern to give Irish football a DIG OUT.[/I]

surely rather than berating today fm it would be far better to lobby them about a ten min slot during the programme dedicated to eircom lge football? they are a commercial concern at the end of the day and would possibly welcome constructive feedback that may ultimately improve their listenership.
i have long thought that part of the problem of promoting the eircom lge is the standard (usually low i'm afraid) of the pundits put in front of the microphone / tv. compare the ranting of the likes of pat dolan and roddy collins with the mature analysis of the likes of giles / hunter on newstalk

[pixiehead]

surely rather than berating today fm it would be far better to lobby them about a ten min slot during the programme dedicated to eircom lge football? they are a commercial concern at the end of the day and would possibly welcome constructive feedback that may ultimately improve their listenership.
i have long thought that part of the problem of promoting the eircom lge is the standard (usually low i'm afraid) of the pundits put in front of the microphone / tv. compare the ranting of the likes of pat dolan and roddy collins with the mature analysis of the likes of giles / hunter on newstalk

Well can we sort somthing out so ??

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Donegal Celtic are a west Belfast team. And a poor one with limited history, no fans and a rubbish ground at that.

Cliftonville are a North Belfast team, and the oldest in Irish football. Therefore, why would they shed fans to the above ? Did Pats shed fans to Dublin City when they relaunched themselves in Tolka ?

As for the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist team' bit. Those who are into football primarily through reasons of politics tend not to give a fcuk about the Irish League. They have Glasgow Celtic to help them live-out their sectarian fantasies....

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of a body of Nationalist football supporters in belfast anyway, eager to switch allegiance at the appearance of a team with a shilelaigh on its badge or something else more uber-Gaelic than they've had to settle with before. I can only imagine its from naive conjecture.

Woah, there.

I got this understanding from a lad from Newry who used to work in the same place as me, with whom I had a casual discussion on the subject years ago. 'Pan-Belfast-nationalist team' was obviously hyperbole, but as he explained it, the closest team for Belfast Celtic families to 'choose from' after they went for a Burton (and were left in a situation similar to that of pixiefan) was Linfield. He didn't really stress the apoliticism of West Belfast football fans in the course of the conversation. I am delighted to learn about same; I knew Glentoran were meant to have great cross-community support until the seventies but I didn't know the goodwill was general.

There's a huge section of Bohs fans whose families in prior generations were solidly Drums, including my own. And when Shels came into Drumcondra there was a little flurry of Northside schoolkids who got the jerseys and started going to the matches. Things change very quickly in Irish football.

If you're saying that the football people from the West Belfast families that historically constituted the Belfast Celtic demographic just gave up football or all support Celtic (Glasgow) now, and Cliftonville fans are all from North Belfast, then that's grand — lots of former Drums families have purely Premiership descendants as part of a wider phenomenon — and I have more information on the subject.

But I was under the impression that Cliftonville had fans in West Belfast (sort of like Galway have fans in Mayo) and that furthermore these fans did not drift from Linfield's fan base.

[dcfcsteve]

Woah, there.

I got this understanding from a lad from Newry who used to work in the same place as me, with whom I had a casual discussion on the subject years ago. 'Pan-Belfast-nationalist team' was obviously hyperbole, but as he explained it, the closest team for Belfast Celtic families to 'choose from' after they went for a Burton (and were left in a situation similar to that of pixiefan) was Linfield. He didn't really stress the apoliticism of West Belfast football fans in the course of the conversation. I am delighted to learn about same; I knew Glentoran were meant to have great cross-community support until the seventies but I didn't know the goodwill was general.

Like most things, it isn't as simple as the 'Catholics support Catholic teams' theory your mucker form Newry has suggested. I suspect that his knowledge of Irish football and Belfast was rather ropey - as the below will suggest.

First of all, Cliftonville spent a large part of their history as a team associated primarily with the protestant community, rather than the Catholic one. I'm not sure exactly when the change to being a perceptively Nationalist team happened, but I suspect it was greatly accelerated by the onset of the Troubles, from which point onwards the slowly changing 'ethnic' lines within North Belfast began to alter much more dramatically. Cliftonville FC began life in a protestant area of Belfast, but over time found itself in a staunchly Catholic/nationalist area instead. Its support changed to reflect this. As I said, I'm not sure when this metamorphosis/change in catchment area and support occured, but I would be surprised if it was at an advanced stage as early as 1948, when Belfast Celtic left senior football.

Secondly - as you've mentioned re the Glens, most of Northern Irish football managed to avoid serious sectarian divisions prior to the Troubles. Linfield and Belfast Celtic were the obvious exceptions to this - largely mirroring the situation in Scotland. The rest of the teams in the league by and large just got on with their football (isolated incidents aside) in the late 1940's and early 1950's (i.e. the post eltic period). Therefore - there was no special attraction for the Catholics who found themselves without a club in 1948 to be drawn towards Cliftonville (particularly as the Reds were an unsuccessful amateur side at the time). Religion was not a draw to Cliftonville in the 1940's/1950's.

Thirdly - your friend's knowledge of Irish League football and Belfast geography is rather suspect. Linfield have always been baased in South Belfast - Belfast Celtic in the West of the city. Linfied were far form the closest option for Celtic fans to switch allegiance to - e.g. Distillery were West Belfast based until the 70'S. Crusaders, who replaced Celtic, may have been closer in their North Belfast base than The Blues (hough someone with a better knowledge of Belfast woudl need to confirm or deny this). Regardless - geography did not provide a reason for Celtic fans to switch.

But I was under the impression that Cliftonville had fans in West Belfast (sort of like Galway have fans in Mayo) and that furthermore these fans did not drift from Linfield's fan base.

I have no doubt that, over the years, Cliftonville developed support in West Belfast. Particularly as the club became more narrowly defined in religious-support terms, and particularly as Cliftonville-supporting Catholic families moved from the interface areas of North Belfast to the relative safety of the West of the city. But that doesn't suggest that Celtic fans switched to the Reds. All Belfast clubs would've developed support bases throughout the City anyway, as the population became more mobile and with the displacement caused by the Troubles. But I suspect strongly that your friend from Newry added a Catholic one and one together and ended-up with a Vatican-charged 257 that didn't reflect reality . You also appear to be under the impression that Windsor Park is in, or near, West Belfast...?

There's a huge section of Bohs fans whose families in prior generations were solidly Drums, including my own.

That makes sense geographically, given how close Tolka and Dalymount are. Solitude and Celtic Park were much further apart however. And by the theory of geographical proximity, Celtic fans should've largely switched allegiance to Distillery anyway.

If you're saying that the football people from the West Belfast families that historically constituted the Belfast Celtic demographic just gave up football or all support Celtic (Glasgow) now, and Cliftonville fans are all from North Belfast, then that's grand — lots of former Drums families have purely Premiership descendants as part of a wider phenomenon — and I have more information on the subject.

I have no idea what Belfast Celtic fans did when their club died. However - given Celtic were a very successful, glamorous, professional club, I suspect their fans had no interest in supporting any other team instead, particularly an unsuccessful amateur one in a different part of the city. If Man United disappeared tomorrow, would their support suddenly shift to Bury ? That's not really how football works (particularly not for the generation that supported Celtic).

[OneRedArmy]

Secondly - as you've mentioned re the Glens, most of Northern Irish football managed to avoid serious sectarian divisions prior to the Troubles.

Steve whilst you are correct in disabusing the link between Belfast Celtic and Cliftonville the above statement is not entirely correct. Can't be arsed arguing the toss on this, but broadly Catholics in Belfast either kept their heads down and their mouths shut, or supported Distillery.

Put bluntly there absolutely were divisions and plenty of incidents at and around football games much nastier than anything that we've seen in the last 20 years, but things were very different back then in every facet of life and for many reasons they didn't demand or receive media coverage.

[sonofstan]

You also appear to be under the impression that Windsor Park is in, or near, West Belfast...?

Nearer than solitude, surely? I'd guess Windsor is no further from the Falls than Tolka is from Dalyer

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Like most things, it isn't as simple as the 'Catholics support Catholic teams' theory your mucker form Newry has suggested. I suspect that his knowledge of Irish football and Belfast was rather ropey - as the below will suggest...

Very interesting and much appreciated.

First of all, Cliftonville spent a large part of their history as a team associated primarily with the protestant community, rather than the Catholic one. ...

That's what sparked off the conversation, if memory serves. Distillery might well have been mentioned as well, but if they were I obviously forgot about them.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Nearer than solitude, surely? I'd guess Windsor is no further from the Falls than Tolka is from Dalyer

Google Maps says 1.7 miles for Windsor Park - (top of the) Falls Rd. and 2.3 km for Dalymount to Tolka. That makes Windsor a little further away from the Falls than Tolka from Dalyer, I think. It's still next-door in real terms, anyway.

(Not that this is any longer a material bit of information in the light of dcfcsteve's more detailed explanation above, I hasten to add.)

[barney]

Ciaran and a few others in here remind me of that character played by John Thompson in the Fast Show a few years back - Roger, the Nouveau Football Fan

He was a middle-class football fan, whose every utterance betrayed the faddish nature of his devotion.

“I used to support Manchester United,” he tells those in the vicinity of his recently acquired seat at Highbury, “but then you had to support them where I came from in, er, Hampstead.”

When United failed to win the league, he switched to Blackburn Rovers and he is “thinking of giving Newcastle Athletic a go”. But for now, he tells his appalled audience, “I’m a true blue Gunner Gooner - bang!”

Then, as soon as the first opposition goal goes in, he leaves. “Soccer!” he shouts, packing his picnic hamper away.

That sums up the barstooler and the foreign club dick-riders perfectly.

No it doesn't.

Some people, if they are going to watch football, want to watch quality football. We have a strong link with the English game (media coverage, Irish players playing in the league, relatives in England) which, like it or not, is infinitely superior to the eircom League in terms of quality. The Premiership may be overhyped but it is a very good standard of football and one of the best, if not the best, leagues in the world.

Very few, if any, of my mates have ever switched (English) teams that they support/follow and good percentage of them have a much better understanding of the game than a lot of the people I see (and hear) at eircom League grounds.

I support my local side and get to as many games as possible. I also watch and follow The Premiership. I have the time and inclination to do both. Some people don't and plump for the English game. That's a reasonable choice in my book (even if I don't agree). Football is not 100% tribal for a lot of people. They enjoy the game and enjoy watching it being played well.

People aren't going to change. It's therefore up to the eircom League to improve the standard of the league and its facilities until such time that more people decide that the drop in the quality of what they are watching is amply compensated by the fact that they are supporting their local club.

Less of the 'chip on the shoulder' attitude wouldn't go amiss either. If the eircom League/FAI adopt an attitude of "I can't understand how anyone can support an English club" then the situation will not get any better. There is a reason it happens with most football supporters in this country. It's up to the league to do something to reverse the trend.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Less of the 'chip on the shoulder' attitude wouldn't go amiss either.

In some cases it is 'zeal of the convert' stuff, though, and that's not to denigrate it or anything. The league needs all the zealots it gets.

There's people who have always only followed English soccer and (a tiny amount of) people who have always exclusively followed their local Irish team. Many of the latter are understandably cheesed off about the former.

Then you have football-mental people who have always supported League of Ireland and gone to the matches, but have also always followed the fortunes of an English team and are mad about them as well and probably go over once or twice a season, and probably have a favourite in about three other leagues too.

Then you have people who started off following English teams like their mates but who in later life discovered League of Ireland. It depends how they handle that discovery. Some people still keep an eye out for their English team and follow them as closely as they used to, but are probably much more into the live game, going to as many Irish matches as possible.

Some of this last group, however, do a complete 180, recant their former lifestyle, disavow any Irishman following any English team in any circumstances, and claim not to fathom how anybody could ever do such a thing in the first place.

[OneRedArmy]

In reference to the elitist and zealots points raised in respect of EL supporters, bear in mind that hardcore fans of any club in any league dislike the sunshiner/bandwagon variety of their own support.

Those who "follow" English sides and make it over to a game once in a while might like to think the die hards love the effort you make to attend the odd game, but really, as far as they're concerned, there's no difference between you and the Japanese or Norwegian guy who makes it to a match every once in a while.

They look down their nose at sunshiners of any variety. Fact.