Terry Venables

[Drumcondra 69er]

Anotehr article from teh archives, more for humour then to add anything to the debate.

You know what it's like. You're going out with a good-looking woman and
you've been going out with her for a while. At first it's nothing but
excitement and passion. You're amazed at the things she'll do for and to
you. All your mates are envious. They wish their girlfriends were as good as
yours.

But then after a while, you start to get a bit bored. That thing she does
with the parsnip and yoghurt starts to seem a bit ordinary, she never stops
talking about babies and you begin to wonder if you can't do better
elsewhere.

You start to fancy a woman with a bit of experience, you know, someone who's
been around, someone who knows the score. But soon after dumping your
girlfriend, you realise you've landed up with someone who is old, boring and
a bit fat. Suddenly all your mates' girlfriends look a lot better than
yours. What the hell have you done?

As it is with girlfriends, so it is with football clubs. And especially down
at Elland Road, where it's a case of 'meet the new boss, worse than the old
boss'.

I'm not really a Leeds supporter these days, but I've got a love hangover
from the Leeds team of 1968-75 when they were the boss team of Europeean, or
even world, football. They were crushingly awesome and my love of them from
those days still lingers on my football soul the way the smell of a lover
stays on your fingers when you're getting a bus to work the next morning.

Forget any other stories this season has thrown up - there is only one truly
shocking tale to tell. And that is how Terry Venables is killing Leeds
United. I mean, Jesus, he's ruined them.

Let's not forget that Leeds, two seasons ago, were awesome in Europe. Let's
not forget that just ten months ago, Leeds were top of the league. Where are
Leeds now? 13th! And knocked out of the Worthington Cup by Sheffield United!
Almost exactly the same players, almost totally different performances. The
difference? Venables.

It's hard to escape the notion that Terry Venables is really, really
terrible as manager of Leeds United.

O'Leary's verbal diarrhoea did him no favours. Nor did the book or his
obsessive infantile witterings about babies, but Jesus, he created a very,
very good side.

Not because he was tactically the best manager or even especially astute in
the transfer market (God knows he splashed enough cash) but because at their
peak, and yes sadly it is a peak now in the past tense, he managed to
organise and motivate the players to play both for themselves and play for
the club.

Now they just seem uncommitted and lazy.

First up is Viduka.

Viduka is too heavy. Modern Premiership players shouldn't be that fat.
Where's the discipline in training? There's no doubt he can be a great
striker when he can be arsed but that doesn't seem to be very often.

Occasionally, he shows phenomenal close control, but this is mostly used
selfishly to make himself look good shortly before losing the ball, often in
a dangerous central position in the last third, allowing sides to hit them
on the break. He's hardly on the score sheet and sometimes it seems that he
couldn't really care either way.

Of course, Viduka looks an even more heavyweight dosser compared to Alan
Smith - 100% Tyke. Smith puts his team mates to shame. Smith isn't
psychotic, he's just pi**ed off that he's got to do the work of three men.
Wouldn't you lose your rag in those circumstances? Smith cares and cares
100%. He gives everything all the time and you can't ask any more than that
of any player.

None of which can be said of Ian Harte, who is beaten to the ball by
slow-moving molluscs. He can't even score from free kicks any more.

And what the hell has happened to Harry Kewell? Once one of the most feared
in the Premiership, he can't have suddenly become poor, so it must be down
to the way he's being managed and motivated. He's not giving nearly enough
for the club.

The same can be said for Lee Bowyer, who seems to have lost all the drive
and energy that made him England material.

Then there's Barmby. Although not without talent, he's an ultimately
ineffective player. Even a casual study of his career tells you this - so
either Venables is stupid or he bought him 'simply because he's one of his
personal favourites. Which is also the reason why Leeds fans are terrified
they will end up with Darren Anderton being wheeled around Elland Road on a
stretcher wrapped in bandages for £20,000 a week.

And what about David Batty? Not long ago Batty was a defensive midfielder
lynchpin. Now he can't get a game in the reserves despite Leeds' poor
defence. Clearly Venables doesn't want Batty but Batty, quite rightly, won't
leave the club that is in his very DNA just to please some Cockney wide boy.
They need his true Yorkshire grit.

And what about selling Keane for £7m? Madness. Firstly, he was worth double
that after a big World Cup, and secondly, all he wanted to do was play and
when he got on he was probably Leeds' only dangerous player. None of which
could be said of porkmeister Viduka. Venables was either blind or stupid not
to realise how much he would need Keane.

And let's look at Mr Venables himself for a moment. He's not really managed
a league club full-time since 1991, when he had only moderate success with
the best squad Spurs have had in 20 years.

Then there was my beloved Boro. He was credited with keeping us up and my
God his media mates won't let us forget it. But it's worth remembering that
he was not asked to make Boro a success, only to keep them up and that's
all. We were far too good to go down anyway.

Venables' career has certainly had little or no success since Euro 96 (and
how good was that really?) and he's had no club success since Barcelona in
the late 80's - now so long ago that anyone who is old enough to vote wasn't
even at school at the time.

I suspect Venables doesn't know how the modern footballer thinks and feels
about the game. I also suspect some think Venables is a fat old man who is
out of touch. Being on telly doesn't make you an expert.

He's supposed to be great at motivation and team bonding, but it's clear
that this is exactly what Leeds lack. Secondly, he is supposed to be a
tactical expert but, as anyone who has watched Leeds will tell you, he's
changed the system the team plays but apparently hasn't told them how to
play the new system.

So, with regards to Venables' two supposed strong points, he's failed
totally at Leeds.

Leeds have a squad of superb players. And, this is the most galling thing
for Leeds fans, the squad is probably better than Man United's, certainly
better than Chelsea's, Spurs' or most of the sides who are currently above
them. In fact, only Liverpool and Arsenal have a better 20, but currently
Leeds are 13th!

Venables was third choice behind Martin O'Neill and Steve McClaren but he
was only a choice at all because of his media presence and media friends.
This also qualifies Des Lynam or perhaps Graham Norton - neither of whom
would have done a worse job.

Here's a prediction: Venables will walk away later this season with a pile
of Leeds' cash and go back to talking about the game on TV. The next Leeds
manager will be left with a club robbed of its potential, with no confidence
and on its knees financially.

It's not right and it's not okay. Leeds fans - get him out now. It's time to
start the chants of Sack the Cockney.

[jmurphyc]

Here boys got this back from Dion Fanning:


Hi Paul,

Thanks for the email. I think Venables is an outstanding candidate for the job and I think your enclosed biography of him is hilariously skewed. More importantly, I think he would have the immediate respect of the players for his ability as a coach and he would also be broad-shouldered enough to handle the media criticism. Hodgson is a good candidate. But praising him for using fine words in an interview is irrelevant. Do you want a manager who can speak a language people interviewing him appreciate or one who talks the language players understand and respond to?
Anyway, thanks for the email.

Regards,

Dion

Fair play to him responding but how he can say Venables is an outstanding candidate and Hodgson a good candidate is beyond me. Look at Finland's level of success compared to England's in this campaign and it's obvious who the outstanding candidate is. IMO the FAI want him to put Venables' name out. If Venables' is selected it could be disastruous. As I said before surely the FAI must realise that they must get this appointment right in regards to the fans wishes this time. I'm not saying they should select the fan's choice but they should select someone who the fans would be content with.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Here boys got this back from Dion Fanning:


Hi Paul,

Thanks for the email. I think Venables is an outstanding candidate for the job and I think your enclosed biography of him is hilariously skewed. More importantly, I think he would have the immediate respect of the players for his ability as a coach and he would also be broad-shouldered enough to handle the media criticism. Hodgson is a good candidate. But praising him for using fine words in an interview is irrelevant. Do you want a manager who can speak a language people interviewing him appreciate or one who talks the language players understand and respond to?
Anyway, thanks for the email.

Regards,

Dion

BTW - the words thing was a tongue in cheek for Venables saying, he prolly wouldn't understand/know half the words in the interview regarding, qualities in a coach.....

I am going to ask him to point out the hilarious skewing of my summarography, which I only copied off DeR ( thanks Der ), but I take it personal for him to take the mick out of my use of the english language. So he is getting a well formulated answer with correct facts and choke on it. And his final point is stupid too, a person who is articulate, will be able speak the players as well as the media, half of stauntons fault was that he couldnt handle the media. So in that respect it is extremely important to have a man who is extremely articulate which hodgson obviouslly is, he can work the media and he can communicate to the players in a way that they understand.

Was just about to ask you to get him to point out the skewing in the summary, let us know what his response is!

[jmurphyc]

Didn't see the "hilariously skewed" bit in my first read. IMO for a journalist to be replying to an e-mail from a member of the public with that kind of language is extremely insulting and very unprofessional. It's only an e-mail response but these people are meant to be serving public interest and instead they're basically putting down one of the people they serve.

[paul_oshea]

ya and I didnt even say it I'd say he knew well it looked like a copy and paste job from wikipedia.....hence his response.

[eekers]

venables at his finest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WiYO46qpe8

[Drumcondra 69er]

ya and I didnt even say it I'd say he knew well it looked like a copy and paste job from wikipedia.....hence his response.

If it was the summary I posted it came from Football 365 years back and is obviously intented to have a humourous slant . Thing is though, it's all based on facts that can't be argued, particulalry round the back end of his career. Be interested to see his summary of Venables work.

And although Fanning's by no means the worst the average Irish football journalist (step forward Paul Hyland and Tom Curtis for a start) know far less about the game then the vast bulk of fans who actually think about the game and how it works.

[eekers]

el tel would get robbie to put in some work on this - shocking performance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8p17fF68MU

[EalingGreen]

By the end of TV's reign at Barca they were being beaten home and away by Dundee Utd and were in turmoil already. He got through to the final of the first European Cup that was without Europe's strongest league (chances are, had Hysel not happened both Liverpool and Everton would have been in it) and failed to win it (for what would have been the first time btw, they didn't manage to win it until 1992). His Barca league win was the high point of his career and how long ago was it, 23 years ago?

Since then he managed a cup win with Spurs and fluked his way to a Euro Championships semi (one decent performance to get there) and been an unmitigated disaster everywhere else. He's also partially culpable in Engalnd's worst qualifying campaign in generations. I'll judge him on his record and more particulalry his recent record, you judge him on what players have to say .

As regards your examples, I'd say they'rethe exceptions that prove the rule. Obviously it happens but not very often. And Venables has so may mates in the media I doubt any stories about him would get very far. In any case, whether players like him or not is irrelevant, his media built reputation far outstrips his record.

When Barca won the title under TV, it was their only such win in 15 years, either side. And a European Cup final was beyond several other top managers, as well.

And I was a Season Ticket holder at Spurs all during TV's reign there and what he achieved just holding the club together in the most difficult circumstances imaginable (absolute chaos), never mind winning a trophy, makes him one of the top three managers from the 20-odd who've succeeded Bill Nicholson.

As for his spell in charge of England, the only reason he was offered the job in the first place, despite his otherwise blemished reputation, was due to his impeccable name amongst people in the game - players, managers etc. Whilst in the job, any home advantage he had in Euro96 was balanced by the fact that he only had two years of friendlies to prepare the team, but they still performed better than any other manager since Ramsey (bar Robson). And the only reason his 2 yr contract was not renewed (he wasn't actually sacked) was due to the personal enmity of Sir Noel White.
Which is why the FA was prepared to have him back (when McLaren asked him), since White was by now out of it (dead?)

As regards his relations with the media, for every "tame" journo a manager talks to, there is another journo who he's not talking to, which means he cultivates friends and enemies in equal measure. A good example of this was in last week's Daily Telegraph, where one journalist was talking TV up for the ROI job, at the same time as another (McLaren-friendly?) hack was slagging TV off for having dictated to McLaren the formation which saw England crash in Zagreb.

All of which is pretty irrelevant to the ROI job, since TV has neither friends nor enemies to any great extent amongst the Irish Press, afaik. Besides, if the FAI is stupid enough to make their apppointment on the basis of what the Tabloid Press says, then they stupid enough to appoint, oh I don't know, a complete novice from somewhere like Walsall Reserves...

[paul_oshea]

here is an excerpt of what i wrote back:

Please point out to me, the “hilariously skewed” elements of my summation?!



The comment about words was somewhat tongue in cheek, but it referred to the questions asked by Andy Roxborough in the link I sent you, where it asked ( paraphrasing here ) “what are the attributes/skills/qualities that makes a good coach?” I meant that Venables probably wouldn’t even know half of these words that Hodgson used to summarise – never mind have acquired them in his “locker” - which leads me to my next point, a person who is articulate, will be able speak the players language as well as the media, part ( quite a big chunk ) of Staunton’s inabilities was that he couldn’t handle the media, and in that respect it is extremely important to have a man who is extremely articulate which Hodgson obviously is, he can work the media and he can communicate to the players in a way that they understand. You, the press, hounded Staunton out of a job, and this led to his eventual downfall. In modern day Ireland, we require more than a man who can speak with the players, we need an all round intelligent person who fits all of the criteria. Venables is a yes man, del-boy style. This brings me onto my final point, to me it appears that it’s a soften blow approach so that when his appointment is announced because the public have read so much about how great a coach he is they will think “world class manager”, yes we finally got him…..

[paul_oshea]

EG, are You Dion in disguise?

[paul_oshea]

i missed the sentence initially in that from my NBF dion where he said "handle the media", even though i took that slant in the paragraph above, does anyone else think it ironic that a journalist comes out and says "handle the media"? Thats not what a journalist is paid to do...............they are paid to print fact.

[EalingGreen]

Just to set some part of the record straight about Hell Tel at Barca.
I was at that Euro SF in Gothenburg in '86 when Barca were played off the park by Gothenburg and beaten 3-0. Barca in the return leg made sure to target and kick savage lumps out IFK's few class players, they won on penalties. The better team lost.

I'd have thought the ability to beat better teams, however it is achieved, would be a pretty good recommendation for the next ROI manager, since whoever he is, he'll get plenty of practice!

[EalingGreen]

No, but (a) I'd pay more attention to, e.g., Dunne's opinion, if he had played under Venables and (b) footballers are notoriously thick anyway. They probably see Venables spouting inane nonsense on ITV and think "cor, he's good".

Do not make the mistake of confusing intelligence with education; footballers are no more or less "thick" than any other section of the population.

More to the point, whether intelligent or educated or otherwise, in my experience, footballers tend to be extremely "street-smart", otherwise they wouldn't get to the top of a notoriously competitive profession.

Consequently, the average footballer might not be able to tell you who the Prime Minister* is, but they can spot a bluffer before he's even entered the Dressing Room. Which is why, imo, for all that they may have liked him personally, the ROI dressing-room lost all confidence in Stan by his second game in charge.


* - Reminds me of one of my favourite football stories, courtesy of Robbie Fowler, about Sven's Half-Time team talk when it was all going pear-shaped in the England game against Brazil out in the 2002 World Cup:
"There we were, in need of a speech by Winston Churchill, and instead we got Ian Duncan Smith!"
(Fowler, btw is well known for being a typicallly undereducated Scouse scally; what is less well known is that he has made far more money in property development than he ever did in football. "Notoriously thick", eh?)

[Paulie]

He'd have been a good appointment when he was sacked from the English job around 11 years ago, but that ship has sailed...

Would he though? He didn't have to qualify England for the competition as they were hosts. They played 5 games during Euro '96, all obviously at home, and as far as I remember, if you take each game as 90 minutes they won just 2 matches (Holland and Scotland) out of those 5. They drew with Switzerland, Spain who they were lucky to get to penalties, and finally having beaten Spain on pens they themselves got beaten on penalties by Germany. I don't think that's a particularly impressive record.

[eekers]

he lost away to ireland during that qualifying campaign too

he's never been a great manager but the media love him

[EalingGreen]

EG, are You Dion in disguise?

Strangely, no. If people read my posts, I am not actually proposing TV as next ROI manager, nor that he would be a success if he were to get it. I am probably more aware of his flaws than the great majority of posters here.

I am merely making the point that as a coach, his credentials and reputation are arguably unmatched by any other Englishman of his generation. Also (and I'd have thought that this was pertinent following Stan), he is extremely experienced at all levels, including internationally, in a number of countries.

Of course, it might be considered that he is "past it", but he's only four years older than e.g. Hodgson, who has at least as many gaps in his record as El Tel(Blackburn, anyone?). Of course, Hodgson has done a fine job with Finland (without actually achieving Qualification, btw), but why do you think he was reduced to applying for the job in charge of a small country which has never qualified for a major tournament in the first place? Especially one where football isn't even the third or fourth sport, never mind the national sport?

Assuming he really is interested, TV has to be in the top three or four of those candidates who are being credibly proposed for the job. And if none of the others can be persuaded, you could easily do worse than him, imo.

That's all.

[jbyrne]

Here boys got this back from Dion Fanning:


Hi Paul,

Thanks for the email. I think Venables is an outstanding candidate for the job and I think your enclosed biography of him is hilariously skewed. More importantly, I think he would have the immediate respect of the players for his ability as a coach and he would also be broad-shouldered enough to handle the media criticism. Hodgson is a good candidate. But praising him for using fine words in an interview is irrelevant. Do you want a manager who can speak a language people interviewing him appreciate or one who talks the language players understand and respond to?
Anyway, thanks for the email.

Regards,

Dion

a couple of things..

what proof does fanning have that venebles was/is still a good coach? i am not aware of any such back-up to that claim

couldnt give a hoot about his ability to handle media critisism. anyway, if he is as good as fanning thinks he is surely vultures like himself would have nothing to be critical about!

[Newryrep]

i dont want him anywhere near the job but have an awfull feeling the FAI will appoint him as he will give good copy to the newspapers and he is a recognised name hence the pressure will be off Delaney.*

*That until 2 years down the line after another diastrous campaign when the rebuilding , small nation ******** will be trotted out and we cant afford to sack him as he is on a cushy number with a partime job leaving him loads of free time for his other work !

wont somebody please think of the children

[Drumcondra 69er]

* - Reminds me of one of my favourite football stories, courtesy of Robbie Fowler, about Sven's Half-Time team talk when it was all going pear-shaped in the England game against Brazil out in the 2002 World Cup:
"There we were, in need of a speech by Winston Churchill, and instead we got Ian Duncan Smith!"
(Fowler, btw is well known for being a typicallly undereducated Scouse scally; what is less well known is that he has made far more money in property development than he ever did in football. "Notoriously thick", eh?)

The same Sven Goran Errikson who's a far superior managerial record then Terry Venables? Hmm, who's the bluffer?

* IFK Göteborg
o Svenska Cupen Winners 1979, 1982
o Allsvenskan Champions 1981, 1982
o UEFA Cup Winners 1982
* S.L. Benfica
o Portuguese Liga Champions 1983, 1984, 1991
o Cup of Portugal Winners 1983
o SuperCup Cândido de Oliveira Champions 1989
o European Cup Runners Up 1990
o UEFA Cup Runners Up 1983
* A.S. Roma
o Coppa Italia Winners 1986
* U.C. Sampdoria
o Coppa Italia Winners 1994
* S.S. Lazio
o Coppa Italia Winners 1998, 2000
o Italian Super Cup Winners 1998
o UEFA Cup Winners' Cup Winners 1999
o UEFA Super Cup Winners 1999
o Serie A Champions 2000