Dublin Bus Strike

[Dodge]

All part of the same pot as people hating unions. Afterall, Trade Unions are made up of normal working people. The attitude today prevails that they must be smashed

I'm not sure that is the prevailing attitude. I'd sat more workers are members of union than not. As previously stated its just that employers federation and the like have more sway with the media, and do a better PR job.

I also despise the way people blame unions for doing stuff, when basically they only move when demanded to do so by workers.

Still don't think there's much wrong with Dublin Bus in this dispute, but has been said its the workers that feel aggrieved.

[Macy]

I'm not sure that is the prevailing attitude. I'd sat more workers are members of union than not. As previously stated its just that employers federation and the like have more sway with the media, and do a better PR job.

On reflection, you're probably right. Maybe views are just more polarised?

I also despise the way people blame unions for doing stuff, when basically they only move when demanded to do so by workers.

Still don't think there's much wrong with Dublin Bus in this dispute, but has been said its the workers that feel aggrieved.

Certainly in our Branch disputes are avoided were possible and infact it'll be the full time officials talking people down from more drastic action a lot of the time.

[Dodge]

On reflection, you're probably right. Maybe views are just more polarised?

Certainly think so. Although even that may just be internet rubbish. "He who shouts loudest" and all that...

My previous union was notorious for inaction. Despite numerous meetings/compaints etc I think they only contacted management once (outside of normal partnership type meetings)

[OneRedArmy]

Much as I depise the typical individuals who are the public faces of unions (whose self interest is firmly in maintaining and stoking the somewhat outdated "them versus us" mentality) , capitalism by its nature is rarely benevolent, ergo unions remain necessary in the absence of strong government regulation of the business sector.

Not sure if any information exists on both productivity/profit and pay levels in unionised vs non-unionised sectors, but something like this would make interesting reading.

Not entirely sure how this translates to the public sector (tbh having no real experience of working in it I, rightly or wrongly, view all civil servants with an element of mistrust).

[Macy]

Not sure if any information exists on both productivity/profit and pay levels in unionised vs non-unionised sectors, but something like this would make interesting reading.

The interpretation would be a nightmare though. How would you classify industries/ employments for starters before you even get onto the outcomes. After all, some would see high profitability and low pay as good thing, other's would see that as the workers not getting their fair share, and vica versa. Then you'd also have the working conditions, bonuses etc.

It'd be the stupid "average pay" arguments times about 100!

[OneRedArmy]

The interpretation would be a nightmare though. How would you classify industries/ employments for starters before you even get onto the outcomes. After all, some would see high profitability and low pay as good thing, other's would see that as the workers not getting their fair share, and vica versa. Then you'd also have the working conditions, bonuses etc.

It'd be the stupid "average pay" arguments times about 100!

I see what you mean, but what I would like to see would be, ceteris paribus, higher productivity and higher wage increases in non-unionised sectors when compared with similar unionised sectors.

This would at least question the benefit of the adversarial approach of most unions.

Remember, if an individual employee feels that their employer respects them and treats and rewards them fairly, then unions become unnecessary.

Purely utopian ideal maybe, but worth flagging that unions are not always necessary.

[Dodge]

Remember, if an individual employee feels that their employer respects them and treats and rewards them fairly, then unions become unnecessary.

Purely utopian ideal maybe, but worth flagging that unions are not always necessary.

I don't think anyone has claimed that unions are neccessary in utopia in fairness...

But in real world industrial politik, they are most definitely needed

[Boh_So_Good]

On the comparison between the LUAS and the DART, they both get Public money. One has private money aswell.

But the lads at Luas do not do stuff like shut down the entire system because one of their son's gets caught fiddling the fare box as happened on the Dublin-Cork line when a rural station master in the middle of the rush hour decided to defend sonny's boys honour after his son was being investigated for missing fares. You see the difference?

It's CIE union thing - it a sick, sick culture within the NBRU - they know no other way of working than being a law unto themselves and they are not public transport professionals in any way. Just a shower who are paid by us to drive buses and trains when it suits THEM.

That brings up another major issue in the CIE unions, incredible nepotism and inter-generational employment for the sons and grandsons of CIE employees and us the suckers in the private sector paying for this system of economic aparthide.

On the state of public transport in Dublin - it is only subsidised to 5% of its running costs - the privately run London tube is subsidised to the tune of 35% of its running costs by the government. Public transport in spain is recieves subsidies of around 50% of its running costs. So you see, in comparison Irish public transport is GROSSLY UNDERFUNDED!

I am sorry but in 2007 this is complete bull**** and has been for about 6 years when the huge bucks started flowing in the public transport again. The issue is that a lot of the money spent on capital investment does not always relate to the same level of increased service due to the work-to-rule nature of the CIE workforce. The entire Dublin bus fleet has been replaced, all the tracks, signalling and 90% of railway rolling stock on Irish Rail has been replaced with new gear. So change the "underfunded" record - it's not relevant anymore.

Have we really got ourselves the level of service to match the level of capital investment? I do not think we have. How come other European countries deliver public transport services using old gear and with a tiny subvention compared to what CIE gets off Irish taxpayers?

Here in Ireland we build gyms for Dublin Bus workers and they go on strike! Go to any Eastern European country and you have manky old trams, trains and buses. But they come every couple of minutes and are always useful and very reliable. It's called a "service" for a reason. The NBRU forced CIE to leave brand new trains for the Dublin-Cork line sitting at Limerick Junction for NINE MONTHS and when they finally went into service the *****s refused to drive them! Is this normal to anybody outside the sick, dysfunctional world of the CIE unions?

Here we have CIE with loads of new kit and it's still a case of "are ye right there Micheal" in terms of service. This is a shocking waste of taxpayers money and it lies 100% with the unions in CIE who want gyms (naturally) and new buses and trains (maybe), but still want to work some lazy roster and be given medals for doing it. Ireland is a 24/7 society and economy in 2007. It's still 1977 in the CIE unions.

Consider the situation were the Waterford to Limerick inter-city rail and Hueston to Kildare commuter lines have no Sunday train service as the sons, fathers, grandsons, uncles and cousins who drive the trains want a day off. This is were the gap in public transport service versus actual service improvements are...the NBRU's institutionalised mindset.

One more thing. How come the Luas turns a profit and requires no annual subvention, while every single element of the CIE transport sector sucks in cash like a giant Dyson? The answer is simple, see above.

I was a socialist until I started investigating the NBRU. I am not joking. I am 100% being honest here. I have been studying the CIE unions for a few years now and some of the stuff I came across turned me from a socialist to the capitalist. I am not joking.

Including:

• A new staircase installed at Pearse which after 2 years of complex negotiations between 14 separate CIE unions was finally declared ready for public use. Only to remain locked as the staff at Pearse didn't feel like opening it. It still remains locked.
  
• A bus stop which was moved 50 meters on the Long Mile Road to make way for QBC improvements was turned into a "disturbance money" shakedown by the bus drivers. This issue has still not been resolved after 2 years.
  
• In 1986 a German company wanted to build trains for worldwide export at Inchicore and the CIE train builders unions said no as it would of meant recruiting 3,000 workers from outside CIE (this was at a time were Ireland had 16% unemployment and badly needed outside investment). 3,000 jobs were lost to the Irish economy thanks to the "daycent oul skins" at CIE unions standing up for worker's rights.

ad it goes on and on and on. I could sit here all night typing but I really need to look after my heart.

I'll just close by saying I am not anti-union as such and the situation at Luas shows that a happy compromise between public and private sector can work and deliver good public transport to all. But that abomination we witnessed at Harristown last week was simply lowlife carry on and cannot be defended. The reason why this happened, is because this is the culture within the CIE unions. The are completely out of control and know no other way to function.

Like I said, bring on the Metro and more Luas lines so we can keep the working public transport in this country doing what public transport is mean to do. Serve the eh, "public."

[OneRedArmy]

I don't think anyone has claimed that unions are neccessary in utopia in fairness...

But in real world industrial politik, they are most definitely needed

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

Union officials wages need to come from somewhere and therefore in their interest to keep membership as high as possible.

[pete]

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

If you are paying subs & never strike what is the point. I would guess most union leaders earn nice big salaries & won't criticise the government as they want to get appointed to State boards when they retire.

Still interesting that no one has been able to justify the Dublin Bus strike. A few people supporting but no reasons why...

Public transport needs large investment but paying the bus drivers more money after each shakedown won't improve the service. When Iarnrod Eireann introduce new trains the union went on strike. When the DAA created more space at Dublin Airport the baggage handlers tried to shake them down for a payout just to work in a different room. Employees of monopolies (public & private) are always the most militant.

Brendan Ogle should be banned from representing people that work in critical public services.

[Dodge]

But the lads at Luas do not do stuff like shut down the entire system because one of their son's gets caught fiddling the fare box as happened on the Dublin-Cork line

I thought you were complaining about the DART

That brings up another major issue in the CIE unions, incredible nepotism and inter-generational employment for the sons and grandsons of CIE employees and us the suckers in the private sector paying for this system of economic aparthide.

Do us civil servants not count? Can't be nepotism in there and we pay as much tax as anyone. From my experience the nepotism thing is worst in big private sector companies like Banks etc

[Macy]

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

I agree to some extent, but it's more that the members don't come looking until there's an issue that effects them. We immediately saw an increase of approx 25% when we started on an issue here. It's the members that dictate, not the other way round. Infact I'd go as far as to say in most cases it's the Officials talking down the members more than the other way round!

Union density has suffered as a result of the Unions buying into Partnership, at a local and national level (it is one of the conditions of the wage agreements). It has to be a two way street though - most disputes are when the management don't stick to agreements.


Bohs so Good - to repeat my earlier post, LUAS is a SIPTU closed shop. You know, the union that is the root of all evil according to your earlier posts.

[Dodge]

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

Union officials wages need to come from somewhere and therefore in their interest to keep membership as high as possible.

Again I can speak about my area but unions play a big part in wage negotiations etc. Plenty of support too for individual disputes with management

[Macy]

Still interesting that no one has been able to justify the Dublin Bus strike. A few people supporting but no reasons why...

Most have said that they don't know enough. To go back to last week, I'll say again, allowing the same time that the Dublin Bus route says it takes from Harristown to the City Centre would've been a start! 45 or 50 minutes, it's still Harristown to Eden Quay 60minutes as per the timetable! Also obvious enough Management were trying to play the system with minor route changes to give major terms and conditions changes rather than go through the proper procedures. i.e. Management trying to pull a fast one, which the Unions pulled them up on. I doubt they'll try the same again too soon, whereas if it'd been let through...

Brendan Ogle should be banned from representing people that work in critical public services.

People should have the right to be represented by who they want.

[OneRedArmy]

Certainly think so. Although even that may just be internet rubbish. "He who shouts loudest" and all that...

My previous union was notorious for inaction. Despite numerous meetings/compaints etc I think they only contacted management once (outside of normal partnership type meetings)

How would you differentiate between workers and management as a matter of interest?

I've found that in many companies (particularly relatively new businesses) nowadays there is a blurring or a complete absence of distinction between management and non-management grades.

[BohsPartisan]

I am sorry but in 2007 this is complete bull**** and has been for about 6 years when the huge bucks started flowing in the public transport again.

I based my post on the latest figures.

I was a socialist until I started investigating the NBRU. I am not joking. I am 100% being honest here. I have been studying the CIE unions for a few years now and some of the stuff I came across turned me from a socialist to the capitalist. I am not joking.

Sounds like a massive wind up to me. The NBRU and SIPTU have little to do with Socialism, other than that Socialists advocate unionised workforces. We also oppose undemocratic union bureaucracies.

Like I said, bring on the Metro and more Luas lines so we can keep the working public transport in this country doing what public transport is mean to do. Serve the eh, "public."

Private companies exist to make a profit for their shareholders. The metro will be payed for out of taxpayers money, then a private company will come in and take the profits. Recently LUAS announced they would increase their fares at rush hour.
Private operators are only interested in lucrative profitable routes. The CIE companies will be then left to try and run the unprofitable but essential lesser used routes with less cash to fund them. WOrkers in CIE companies will be asked to take pay cuts so the state company can compete with yellow pack labour in the private firms. We already have two glaring examples of this in Irish Ferries and now Aer Lingus.
The LUAS is a success, not because is run by a private company but because demand exists for the service. It would be no different if it was run by a state company. However the workers might get paid a bit better.

[Dodge]

How would you differentiate between workers and management as a matter of interest?

I've found that in many companies (particularly relatively new businesses) nowadays there is a blurring or a complete absence of distinction between management and non-management grades.

In my sector its very clear cut(with HR being definied as management).

I agree with the thrust of your arguement though

[Dodge]

Unions are a joke. They'd call a strike for the slightest change in their work processes. They were a curse on this country for a long time and now its seems to be in vogue again!

It's ESB next possibly according to RTE News

Of course it's alway involves ex state-run companies - feckers wouldn't last a second in a job in the private sector!

Please read the thread before making stoopid comments.

[pete]

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.

[pineapple stu]

And you think being squashed into a non air conditioned carriage like a sardine, with people jabbing you in the ribs at every turn (thats of course assuming that people can actually move their arms at this stage) with more and more people pilling on at each stop isn't the worst part of your day?

Have you ever driven during the rush hour? There's no contest.